318 motor build
08-31-2015, 05:30 AM
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318 motor build
hi my name is aaron im 24 im new here i have a 318 motor if need block numbers to know how to answer better tell where i can find them i have resently got into dodges hoping to get me a somewhat decent dart body to put my motor in when i get the motor done but back to my question the carb im gonna do first cause i want to get it rebuilt and on the shelf outta the way i was wondering if they was any way i could ummm how i say this is there a way that i can get a lil better performance out of it.
Thanks in Advance
Aaron
Thanks in Advance
Aaron
08-31-2015, 05:41 AM
#2
Mopar Lover
Arron -
If I assume you have a 318/2 barrel engine, and you want to play a little now and do more later the first step for most people is to upgrade the factory carb with a new intake and 4 barrel.
If you want to keep the stock 2 barrel, any tuning/tweaks will depend on the rest of the motor, and will admittedly be limited.
Archer
If I assume you have a 318/2 barrel engine, and you want to play a little now and do more later the first step for most people is to upgrade the factory carb with a new intake and 4 barrel.
If you want to keep the stock 2 barrel, any tuning/tweaks will depend on the rest of the motor, and will admittedly be limited.
Archer
08-31-2015, 02:39 PM
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Well Archer it ant im wanting to play a lil now and later it just imma poor boy i would really like spend money on things i need more for a motor thats be setting for ummm lets say a year i dont know exactly like main bearings rod bearings and piston rings
Aaron
Aaron
09-03-2015, 08:00 PM
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Well the guy I got it off of said that it didn't have that many miles on it and no I haven't done a compression test on it don't have the tools to do that test and no I haven't herd it run and don't wanna start it cause it don't have any manifolds on it
09-04-2015, 05:04 PM
#6
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Before you invest anything in the motor you had best know what you're working with. Engines are cheap these days and starting with a good one validates investing more money in it. You should really pull the heads and inspect the bores and how large the ridge is at the top of the bore. Burnt valves will also be in plain sight. Obviously if its not running you can't do a compression test unless it's on the shop floor or mounted in a cradle and you know what your doing. Removing the timing cover, oil pan and intake will reveal even more - sludge, dry stretched timing chain, plugged oil pickup etc. In the event that this is not something your comfortable with, wait until it's in a car and running and then you'll see exactly what you bought. Everybody selling an engine claims low mileage. Become skeptical before becoming poor. Putting a new carb or rebuilt one on a trash engine isn't going to make it run better if it doesn't run now. Why did you not ask the guy for the manifolds when you bought the engine? Some of that vintage can be hard to find and expensive.
Last edited by Rooty; 09-04-2015 at 05:10 PM.
09-05-2015, 04:03 PM
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Well it was my brother I bought the motor off of well technically my dad bought the motor and I ask him for it and he gave it to me and I thank all you guys for the advice the reason I wanted the motor is cause I want to rebuild one myself always wanted to but didn't have a motor till now I ordered a holley r7641 carb this morning for it cause I didn't wanna have to worry bout the electrical with the one now that's on it but if you guys want me to when I get enough time when I ant helping dad I'll take off the heads and the intake and take pics and post up well this is a long message hope me rambling on about how I wanna build one scares you off but I have always loved hearing my bro and dad build monsters off engines and wanna do it myself wether or not they help me I don't expect my dad to cause he has other things to worry about
09-06-2015, 05:41 PM
#9
Mopar Lover
You've got a Holley 2210, never heard it called race.
http://documents.holley.com/3-711instructions.pdf
http://documents.holley.com/3-711instructions.pdf
09-06-2015, 05:54 PM
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For someone that is gonna rebuild there first carburetor would you suggest me do it on the 2210 or the 6280 I think it is on it already the numbers on the carb on it is r40276 if I remember right. The reason I ordered this carb is cause it don't have anything electrical on it
Last edited by Aaron Cupp; 09-06-2015 at 06:00 PM.
09-06-2015, 06:02 PM
#14
Mopar Lover
Go for it..... These are a simple carb to work on..... You will do just fine....
Just a little different... this is later 70's...
http://s289.photobucket.com/user/rac...ml?sort=6&o=51
The only problem you might run into would be if the 318 has Small Bore that would not accept that carb.
Just a little different... this is later 70's...
http://s289.photobucket.com/user/rac...ml?sort=6&o=51
The only problem you might run into would be if the 318 has Small Bore that would not accept that carb.
Last edited by RacerHog; 09-06-2015 at 06:09 PM.
09-07-2015, 08:03 AM
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Ok guys got the intake manifold off this morning after washing my hands so I don't dirty up my phone but anyways gonna take pics for you guys as soonn as I find out how to post they will be up
09-07-2015, 11:05 AM
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Alright still haven't figured out how to post pics But anyways little update got the heads off and the cylinder walls still have a cross hatch patern on them dad said he will look at them when he gets in so I how nothing major wrong with it
09-08-2015, 10:30 AM
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Ok will do corrnet have to find a way to get it up so I can it's still in the back of my truck and is it good that the cylinders was still have the cross hatch on them and if some one could learn me how to post pics I'll get some pics up
Last edited by Aaron Cupp; 09-08-2015 at 10:36 AM.
09-08-2015, 11:20 AM
#22
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Being an older gent with lots of time on my hands, certain subjects leave me with an inquiring mind and I just have to research some topics. Here's an explanation given by a machinist who has been in engine rebuilding since 1942.
When you look at your engine from the side, the 'Top' and 'Bottom' of the cylinders will wear quicker than the 'Sides' of the cylinders, simply because the piston is being 'Pushed' up one side by the crank during rotation, and 'Hammered' down the other by the 'Power' stroke when the cylinder fires.
I've seen tractor engines from the 1930's still have ' ' 70 years later on the sides of the cylinders...
The is there NOT to seat the rings.
A smooth cylinder would be better for ring seating.
The cross hatch scratches are there to keep a lubrication layer of oil between piston and cylinder wall.
Without someplace for the oil to cling to, the rings would wipe away all lubrication and the piston/rings would gall to the cylinder wall.
In older days, when rings were made of a course metal, the did help file those rings 'Round' and shape them to the cylinder wall,
Now we have much improved piston rings that are actually mostly 'Round', conform to the variances to the cylinder wall, and seat rather well right from the start.
The smoother the ring surface against the cylinder wall, the less oil you need for piston/ring lubrication, which is why we use MUCH FINER grit in the cylinder hones.
Better lubrication oils help with that also,
The oils we use now are smaller molecules, cling much better, don't break down with heat as much, so we can use much finer hones and get better sealing of the rings to cylinder walls for better compression.
Now remember, a cylinder isn't 'Round', they never were,
No matter what you do, the cylinder will never be 'Round'...
They are egg shaped, they are tapered, hour glass shaped, ect.
The rings are there to exert pressure against the cylinder walls to seal up those imperfections as much as possible, and without lubricant, the rings would shave off metal, gall the cylinder wall surface and ring material, and the engine wouldn't last very long.
More about the cylinders...
You CAN NOT keep a cylinder 'Round' and 'True' from top to bottom or side to side.
It just can't happen.
First off, flex in the boring bar will cause an egg shape, deflection will cause a sideways taper and a 'Funnel' or 'Cone' effect.
It won't be much, but anyone that has ever worked in a machine shop with an accurate, sensitive bore gauge will confirm this.
Secondly, the cylinder is going to change shape as it heats up.
Thickness differences in the wall material, Connection points at the top and bottom of the cylinders where they contact head deck material and block webbing material will expand and contact at different rates, so the cylinder that looked nearly perfectly 'Round & True' when cold turns into a real nightmare when the engine reaches operating temprature as the 'Cylinder' warps side to side, twists and moves around throughout it's length, distorting with thermal changes.
Lets not forget head bolt stresses.
Most cylinders have a 5 bolt pattern around the cylinders.
So when that cylinder heats up, you have the top of the cylinder shaped like a with rounded tops to the 'Points.
This produces 'Tight Spots' for the rings, and 'Gaps' for the rings in the 'Low' spots...
Cross hatching helps with delaying the passing of gasses in the 'Low' spots, and it facilitates the rings binding in the 'High' spots by holding some lubrication oil in the 'Scratches'.
Now, since you don't drive a 'Cold' engine...
Two things you can do to minimize these issues are,
1. HOT BORING/HONING.
Circulate hot water through the block when cutting/honing.
Bring the block temp up to about 180 degrees while you are cutting/honing the cylinder, this will give you a better cylinder shape when you are actually operating the engine.
Most places don't do it because circulating hot water through the block is a real pain in the butt, and working on something that is 180 degrees is a huge pain in the butt!
2. Use a ' ' on the top of the block.
This torque plate simulates a cylinder head being bolted on the engine so you get a better cylinder when the engine is running.
The cylinder might be some goofy shape when the is removed, but that cylinder will pull right back to 'Round' when the head is bolted down.
You will find both techniques will produce an engine that keeps it's 'Cross Hatch' a lot longer since the cylinder is closer to 'Round' & 'True' while it's at operating temperature...
depth is subject to what kind of rings and pistons you are going to use.
A 'Lubricated' piston, or 'Lubricated' ring will need a MUCH FINER hone than a cheap piston or .
It's the simple fact the pistons/rings have self lubricating properties, and won't rely on lubrication from oil hiding in the hone scratches as much.
A better quality ring, one that expands 'Round', will be better for sealing the cylinder.
Ductile iron rings have been used for over 100 years, and they are fine for most engines,
But a better choice is 'Molly' coated rings (Molybdenum Disulfide, a dry lubrication coating),
A type of 'Corrosion' metal treatment that is softer than the cylinder wall, so it wears away to fill in 'Tight' spots.
'Gap-less' are even better since there are no ends of thick metal to expand out and gouge the cylinder walls and doesn't leave gaps at the end of the rings for gasses to pass through.
The real test is to look at the sides of the piston.
The 'Top' and 'Bottom' of the piston (Where the longer parts of the skirts are) will have much more wear since they bear the brunt of the 'Pushing' up and down in the cylinder.
Pistons don't expand 'Round'...
Thicker material around the wrist pin bosses causes the piston to expand more on the sides where the wrist pin attaches, so a good piston will be 'Barrel Ground',
Meaning those places where the material is thickest will be tapered,
At the head of the piston, otherwise the head would expand more and wedge in the cylinder,
And on the sides where the wrist pin bosses are, and for the same reason, so they don't over expand and wedge or create more friction at the sides of the piston.
When they heat up during operation, they become 'Round Cylinders' again.
(Yes, I know 'Round Cylinder' is an Oxymoron, but I'm using it in layman's terms, so stay off my butt!)
Your cross hatch was determined by the pistons/rings used at the time of manufacture, and somewhat by the manufacturing process of the period.
You need to adjust your cross hatch hone grit and technique if you intend to use anything other than stock pistons and rings...
Better pistons means you can have tighter cylinder wall to piston clearances,
And better rings means you can have a much finer grit hone for your cross hatch.
Gapless rings mean less wear on the cylinder walls and better compression...
Longer lived engine in the long run.
Harder to install, but much better than what most of us are running, which is the old, thick ductile iron rings...
__________________
When you look at your engine from the side, the 'Top' and 'Bottom' of the cylinders will wear quicker than the 'Sides' of the cylinders, simply because the piston is being 'Pushed' up one side by the crank during rotation, and 'Hammered' down the other by the 'Power' stroke when the cylinder fires.
I've seen tractor engines from the 1930's still have ' ' 70 years later on the sides of the cylinders...
The is there NOT to seat the rings.
A smooth cylinder would be better for ring seating.
The cross hatch scratches are there to keep a lubrication layer of oil between piston and cylinder wall.
Without someplace for the oil to cling to, the rings would wipe away all lubrication and the piston/rings would gall to the cylinder wall.
In older days, when rings were made of a course metal, the did help file those rings 'Round' and shape them to the cylinder wall,
Now we have much improved piston rings that are actually mostly 'Round', conform to the variances to the cylinder wall, and seat rather well right from the start.
The smoother the ring surface against the cylinder wall, the less oil you need for piston/ring lubrication, which is why we use MUCH FINER grit in the cylinder hones.
Better lubrication oils help with that also,
The oils we use now are smaller molecules, cling much better, don't break down with heat as much, so we can use much finer hones and get better sealing of the rings to cylinder walls for better compression.
Now remember, a cylinder isn't 'Round', they never were,
No matter what you do, the cylinder will never be 'Round'...
They are egg shaped, they are tapered, hour glass shaped, ect.
The rings are there to exert pressure against the cylinder walls to seal up those imperfections as much as possible, and without lubricant, the rings would shave off metal, gall the cylinder wall surface and ring material, and the engine wouldn't last very long.
More about the cylinders...
You CAN NOT keep a cylinder 'Round' and 'True' from top to bottom or side to side.
It just can't happen.
First off, flex in the boring bar will cause an egg shape, deflection will cause a sideways taper and a 'Funnel' or 'Cone' effect.
It won't be much, but anyone that has ever worked in a machine shop with an accurate, sensitive bore gauge will confirm this.
Secondly, the cylinder is going to change shape as it heats up.
Thickness differences in the wall material, Connection points at the top and bottom of the cylinders where they contact head deck material and block webbing material will expand and contact at different rates, so the cylinder that looked nearly perfectly 'Round & True' when cold turns into a real nightmare when the engine reaches operating temprature as the 'Cylinder' warps side to side, twists and moves around throughout it's length, distorting with thermal changes.
Lets not forget head bolt stresses.
Most cylinders have a 5 bolt pattern around the cylinders.
So when that cylinder heats up, you have the top of the cylinder shaped like a with rounded tops to the 'Points.
This produces 'Tight Spots' for the rings, and 'Gaps' for the rings in the 'Low' spots...
Cross hatching helps with delaying the passing of gasses in the 'Low' spots, and it facilitates the rings binding in the 'High' spots by holding some lubrication oil in the 'Scratches'.
Now, since you don't drive a 'Cold' engine...
Two things you can do to minimize these issues are,
1. HOT BORING/HONING.
Circulate hot water through the block when cutting/honing.
Bring the block temp up to about 180 degrees while you are cutting/honing the cylinder, this will give you a better cylinder shape when you are actually operating the engine.
Most places don't do it because circulating hot water through the block is a real pain in the butt, and working on something that is 180 degrees is a huge pain in the butt!
2. Use a ' ' on the top of the block.
This torque plate simulates a cylinder head being bolted on the engine so you get a better cylinder when the engine is running.
The cylinder might be some goofy shape when the is removed, but that cylinder will pull right back to 'Round' when the head is bolted down.
You will find both techniques will produce an engine that keeps it's 'Cross Hatch' a lot longer since the cylinder is closer to 'Round' & 'True' while it's at operating temperature...
depth is subject to what kind of rings and pistons you are going to use.
A 'Lubricated' piston, or 'Lubricated' ring will need a MUCH FINER hone than a cheap piston or .
It's the simple fact the pistons/rings have self lubricating properties, and won't rely on lubrication from oil hiding in the hone scratches as much.
A better quality ring, one that expands 'Round', will be better for sealing the cylinder.
Ductile iron rings have been used for over 100 years, and they are fine for most engines,
But a better choice is 'Molly' coated rings (Molybdenum Disulfide, a dry lubrication coating),
A type of 'Corrosion' metal treatment that is softer than the cylinder wall, so it wears away to fill in 'Tight' spots.
'Gap-less' are even better since there are no ends of thick metal to expand out and gouge the cylinder walls and doesn't leave gaps at the end of the rings for gasses to pass through.
The real test is to look at the sides of the piston.
The 'Top' and 'Bottom' of the piston (Where the longer parts of the skirts are) will have much more wear since they bear the brunt of the 'Pushing' up and down in the cylinder.
Pistons don't expand 'Round'...
Thicker material around the wrist pin bosses causes the piston to expand more on the sides where the wrist pin attaches, so a good piston will be 'Barrel Ground',
Meaning those places where the material is thickest will be tapered,
At the head of the piston, otherwise the head would expand more and wedge in the cylinder,
And on the sides where the wrist pin bosses are, and for the same reason, so they don't over expand and wedge or create more friction at the sides of the piston.
When they heat up during operation, they become 'Round Cylinders' again.
(Yes, I know 'Round Cylinder' is an Oxymoron, but I'm using it in layman's terms, so stay off my butt!)
Your cross hatch was determined by the pistons/rings used at the time of manufacture, and somewhat by the manufacturing process of the period.
You need to adjust your cross hatch hone grit and technique if you intend to use anything other than stock pistons and rings...
Better pistons means you can have tighter cylinder wall to piston clearances,
And better rings means you can have a much finer grit hone for your cross hatch.
Gapless rings mean less wear on the cylinder walls and better compression...
Longer lived engine in the long run.
Harder to install, but much better than what most of us are running, which is the old, thick ductile iron rings...
__________________
09-08-2015, 02:32 PM
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Ok thanks for the lesson on the cylinders that was very help but my question now is is the bolt holding the harmonic balancer a left handed thread or just like normal bolts
09-08-2015, 05:03 PM
#24
Mopar Lover
1 1/4" socket right hand thread on there with 100 ft/lbs of torque.
Use a proper bolt on harmonic balancer puller, if you use a 2 or 3 jaw on the outside edge you'll rip it apart.
Use a proper bolt on harmonic balancer puller, if you use a 2 or 3 jaw on the outside edge you'll rip it apart.
09-08-2015, 07:02 PM
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Alright finally found a socket that would fit the impact and got the bolt out and used a puller where you screw bolts in it and then the timing cover and if I knew how to post pics you could see how much slack the timing chain has in it and there is a piece of metal in there that looks like it's been slapping it if I knew how to post pics I could point it out to you guys
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