413 Max Wedge/Mancini build

[Morrigan_Aria]

Alright, this post has been waiting a long time. I do hope you weigh in with your opinions on this build recommendation.

I've been working with Mancini Racing on this 413 MW build for what feels like forever. Anyway, here is the proposed build, they have yet to get me the expected HP and Torque, so I will update this post when I get that information.

Here is what you need to know about this build before I post the recommendations. This vehicle will not be driven more than summer time fun and a few trips down the strip, so street-driven on premium pump gas. I am using the new castings of the MP CAST IRON Max Wedge cylinder heads, which I will have worked with a 3 or 5 angle vavle job and port cleanup. I have an original 1962 Max Wedge intake with a matched pair of 550 cfm Edelbrock carbs, which can be rejetted or I can replace if I really need to. I have decided to stay with the 727 transmission, which will be freshly r/b to the HD gearing and ratios of the MW transmissions. I believe the car has a set of 3.23 SG in the 8.75" rear. I have a 4.10 SG pumpkin but may just trade them for a ratio in between. I will have Max Wedge-style custom exhaust with the bypass cutouts installed with Hemi-style mufflers for nice sound. I also wanted to go with as close as original to the MW cam specs. I think that covers it.

Diamond Forged 9.7:1 compression pistons.
Comp Cams Solid Mechanical 294/294 (248/248 @ 0.50") .525/.525 lift.
Sealed Power moly rings.
Clevite cam/rod mains.
FelPro gaskets.
Milodon 7 qt oil pan, windage tray and 3/8" oil pickup.
Melling High Volume oil pump.
MP Max Wedge cast iron cylinder heads. 2.14" intake, 1.81" exhaust.
TTI ceramic coated headers.
Mini starter.

I'll be using that afrementioned original intake/carb/linkage setup. My air intake system will be dealt with once the motor is in place.

I'm also looking around for a machine shop with really good references in the Seattle/Tacoma area, so if you know of someone, let me know. The motor is intact and so I cannot therefore inform anyone what the actual bored out size will be until I get it to a shop. So I have not included information as to 0.10" over or anything.

Alright, thoughts, opinions? I can turn a wrench alright, but I am not a motor designer, so I am turning to you guys.

[67 GTX]

i would be careful with that 7 qt. oil pan
one bad bump and.....

i wouldn't put 4:10's on the car
3.54's would probably be best
what crank are you using?

[Morrigan_Aria]

They are using a low-profile 7 qt to avoid the bumps and scrapes of every life, parking lots and me living on a dirt road.

No, I'll most likely trade off those 4.10s for something lower, but they WOULD be fun on the strip. 3.54s or 3.73s maybe.

Going to use the original forged crank in the motor. Probably have it polished. (I'm sure that statement alone will generate chuckles).

This motor has about 60K documented miles on it; some head work done in the 80's, but I am not reusing those heads. Otherwise the motor hasn't been cracked open in decades, still turns very freely. Was pulled out of a running car in 2008.

[old tired rebel]

Sounds like you have it all planned out very well.

[Polaradude]

Nothing like a good crank polish.
You might want to ask 66sportfury, Bob Dodge has resurfaced. He's not in Washington anymore but would probably know a Mope friendly shop in your neck o the woods.

[John Van]

Sounds good Morrigan, I think 3.55 gears would be good,have you thought about what torque converter yet?

[Morrigan_Aria]

Actually the subject of the torque converter did come up in a subsequent discussion with Art at Mancini today.

The 727 in question will be built to the MW HD specs. I've asked for Mancini's recommended torque converter on this and I'll see if my trans guy in Oregon has one already.

Do you have a suggestion on what would be good to use? It's kind of cool building this from the intake down, and going from SB to BB. Everything has to be changed and I am not forced to maintain a certain trans build, gear ratio or anything.

So please, everyone, if you have nitpicks with this setup, say so, and give me your recommendations and why you think something should change.

I've already been told I need to either up the compression to 10:1, or up the cam duration to just over 300. So I'm listening.

[67gtxclone]

I too am not an engine designer, but the basics of what you have specified look good to me. I am pretty sure 10.5:1 compression will work with premium pump gas. It worked well on my 10.5:1 327 sb. I know there are a lot of folks on here that can wade deeper in to the weeds on this, but it sounds like you are well on your way to a wicked MW!!!

[72RDRNR]

I don't know how much he knows about semi stock mw rebuilds but it might be worth it to contact mike @ mrlperformance.com he has some great knowledge of mopar motors but not sure about him and MW. Defiinately worth a call/email... great guy to talk/deal with.

[deadkelly]

i think you'll do fine with a mopar purple cam of basically same grind .
you'll get it for $200 from sumit or jegs with lifters thats a solid cam .528 " lift .
& u could save yourself a bit of cash & get a 440 source 7qt pan & pick up ,
jegs timing chain with 9 slot keyway looks ok at $70 with torrington bearing .

also a std mopar windage with a few extra slots cut in it would save $ .
i also think drilling your block for a 1/2" oil pick up is a wise move .

also find out how many cam bolt's are needed before buying your timing chain . there 1 bolt & 3 bolt cams .

[deadkelly]

Originally Posted by Polaradude

Nothing like a good crank polish.
You might want to ask 66sportfury, Bob Dodge has resurfaced. He's not in Washington anymore but would probably know a Mope friendly shop in your neck o the woods.

i agree

[theomahamoparguy]

I think the 9.7 pistons will be fine. The reason; the big blocks mopars don't take well to alot of compression as well as the smallblocks. The sparkplug is not centered as well and the pistons are large in diameter.
One thing I would recommend is to determine (as best as possible) the dynamic compression ratio. This is done using the cam specs of the cam you will use. Do a search on the net and type in "dynamic compression ratio". You will find various calculators that you can use. The most important part of this is the closing point of the intacke valve in relation to the position of the crank. This spec will be on the cam card or in the spec box of the cam. What you want to end up with is something in the 7:1 to 7.5:1 area. Definitely do not go over 8:1. By the way, if you want to lower this figure, you can retard the cam a bit. But if you cant get the number low enough you may need a bigger cam. If the number is too low, (like 6.2:1) you will need a smaller cam or advance the cam a bit. (confused?) What it all comes down to is cylinder pressure. Too much of it and you will need the race gas. (its a balancing act between compression ratio and cam duration).
Everything else looks good. I think I would opt for the 1/2 inch pickup for the oil pump.[hemi size]. Requires a simple machining operation but it is worth the effort in the long run. {especially for higher rpm's where the 3/8 have been known to starve bearings}. my .02 FWIW. Enjoy!

[1966sportfury]

Originally Posted by Polaradude

Nothing like a good crank polish.
You might want to ask 66sportfury, Bob Dodge has resurfaced. He's not in Washington anymore but would probably know a Mope friendly shop in your neck o the woods.

hey thanks buddy! and kelly! real glad to see you two are still here! im from spokane county. and all the the shops i run into are flakes! mancini... why dont you get ahold of mancini and ask them directly? im sure they could help you better than i could...i think mike is the main guy you wanna talk too..i dont know much about the seattle tacoma clark area. but 9.7:1 comp is kinda low and you should have no problem with even 87 octane with iron heads.

[78D200]

For a stall converter, you'll want one that kicks in just before the beginning part of the power RPM band (where you notice your power really picking up). This will really wake up the motor (it sure did help with my j10).

As far as gears in the rear, I would hold onto both for now. The 3.23s is going to work well with the 727 on the street. You'll be cruising no problem and still be able to punch it and have a nice top end when you want it. The 4.10s will very nice on the strip as they will get you up and going rather quickly. I would install a spool in the 4.10 case though so that you have both tires turning.

[Morrigan_Aria]

Originally Posted by theomahamoparguy

One thing I would recommend is to determine (as best as possible) the dynamic compression ratio. This is done using the cam specs of the cam you will use. Do a search on the net and type in "dynamic compression ratio". You will find various calculators that you can use. The most important part of this is the closing point of the intacke valve in relation to the position of the crank. This spec will be on the cam card or in the spec box of the cam. What you want to end up with is something in the 7:1 to 7.5:1 area. Definitely do not go over 8:1. By the way, if you want to lower this figure, you can retard the cam a bit. But if you cant get the number low enough you may need a bigger cam. If the number is too low, (like 6.2:1) you will need a smaller cam or advance the cam a bit. (confused?) What it all comes down to is cylinder pressure. Too much of it and you will need the race gas. (its a balancing act between compression ratio and cam duration).

Here are the cam specs: http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/Ca...?csid=727&sb=2

I don't know alot of the information these calculators want! I don't know the length of the pushrods, the thickness of my head gasket or any of that.

Bore is currently 4.1875, stroke is 3.75. I don't know if we'll have to bore over or not yet, as the motor is all intact.

Do you have another way to figure dynamic compression ratio? I'm understanding the concept, just don't have all the information needed it seems.

Thanks for your input.

[Morrigan_Aria]

Originally Posted by deadkelly

i think you'll do fine with a mopar purple cam of basically same grind .
you'll get it for $200 from sumit or jegs with lifters thats a solid cam .528 " lift .
& u could save yourself a bit of cash & get a 440 source 7qt pan & pick up ,
jegs timing chain with 9 slot keyway looks ok at $70 with torrington bearing .

You like the MP purple cam over Comp Cams?
Again, here are the cam specs: http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/Ca...?csid=727&sb=2
Off the cam spec card: rpm range 3000-6200. Valve timing 0.015. Lobe center 110. Intake centerline 106.
Intake Exhaust
valve lash 0.022 0.022
duration 294 294
duration @ .050 lift 248 248
valve lift .525 .525
lobe lift .356 .356


valve timing @ .015 lift open close
intake 41 BTDC 73 ABDC
exhaust 81 BBDC 33 ATDC

I called Comp Cams and they actually recommended another cam instead. This one would give me another 800 rpm range and I can use a lower rpm torque converter.
http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/Ca...?csid=731&sb=2
Off the cam spec card: rpm range 2500-6500. Valve timing 0.015. Lobe center 110. Intake centerline 106.
Intake Exhaust
valve lash 0.016 0.018
duration 282 290
duration @ .050 lift 244 252
valve lift .520 .540
lobe lift .347 .361


valve timing @ .015 lift open close
intake 35 BTDC 67 ABDC
exhaust 79 BBDC 31 ATDC

Ok, also keep in mind that I DID ask for an original Max Wedge style cam. A '63 MW cam had 300 duration intake and exhaust, and .509 lift. I don't have the rest of the specs.

[Morrigan_Aria]

Originally Posted by 1966sportfury

hey thanks buddy! and kelly! real glad to see you two are still here! im from spokane county. and all the the shops i run into are flakes! mancini... why dont you get ahold of mancini and ask them directly? im sure they could help you better than i could...i think mike is the main guy you wanna talk too..i dont know much about the seattle tacoma clark area. but 9.7:1 comp is kinda low and you should have no problem with even 87 octane with iron heads.

I've asked Mancini (David and Art is who I have dealt with) who they would recommend out in this area. I'll have an answer on Monday, I hope.

Really? 87 octane would help save a few bucks every gas tank!

[67 GTX]

you will probably need more than 87 octane

[Polaradude]

Originally Posted by 67 GTX

you will probably need more than 87 octane

Oh don't you start, I am still waiting for Granny's lasagna recipe....

[deadkelly]

the mopar big block 'b-rb engines book in front of me say's 62-64 max wedge stage 3 used a mechanical 300-308* duration & .520" lift cam ??????

& yes i like the mopar cam over the 1st comp cam choice .
the mopar cam has less duration . so you can use a smaller stall converter & use a lower compression ratio . = more street driving friendly .
there's not much in them but the money you save could go towards a set of roller rockers .
you could also use 1.6 ratio rockers to gain roughly .030" of extra lift over std 1.5 ratio rockers , to maximize lift - duration ratio .
the second comp cams cam sounded interesting .

[theomahamoparguy]

It would be wise to wait til you get your machine work done to be able to arrive at the actual compression ratio. The machinist will be able to fill in all the specs of various actual measurements. Piston manufacturers specs are just nominal estimates.
You may end up with more compression. Although I do think that 9.5:1~ is a good number for street driving. For 87 octane to work on the street, keep it at 9:1 or slightly less. Especially in a bigblock/iron heads combo. After you aquire the actual numbers from the machinist, then you can figure out the best cam (yes, with the help of the dynamic compression calculator.) Actual machine work can vary the mechenical compression by various methods. Bigblocks are not low octane tolerant, you should err on the safe side if at all possible. Large bores, long rods and non centered spark plug location with iron heads are not good for low octane. The only thing goin for ya in the whole mess would be the slightly shorter stroke. (comparatively, in dealing with the low octane).
It may be a hairpulling ordeal now but, in the end yoy will be much happier if you get the "combination" just right for what you want it to do.
I'll tell you one thing, you're prolly gonna scare the livin sh*t outta that Ford guy you know after you give him a ride in it!!

[Morrigan_Aria]

Who said he gets to ride in it?

[67 GTX]

Originally Posted by Polaradude

Oh don't you start, I am still waiting for Granny's lasagna recipe....

haha

[deadkelly]

Originally Posted by Morrigan_Aria

Who said he gets to ride in it?

thats the way .
& it is a good idea to choose your camshaft after your machining is done . & get your machinist to do all the sums & write it all down in a build book , keep track of what parts & clearances & tolerances , any milling that gets done ect .
you could talk to your machinist & even find a piston with a small dome & mill the pistons to suit the compression you want ( thats if you have a solid dome piston ) ( thats why i like alloy heads there more pump gas / compression friendly )

are the heads your buying assembled ???? the type of valve you use & valve notches in the pistons will play a big role in the compression .

& what about con rods ? to fit new rod bolts & resize , clean inspect yours it would be cheaper & stronger to use the new std replacement 440 source rod with 7/16 arp bolts .
if you can afford main studs thats something else worth while & another thing to have before the machine shop dude dose his thing . he'll need to check the mains with the studs installed .
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$
take ya time & don't stress .. all the good extra stuff you do now will pay off in the end , i can see this will cost abit of the Ole hard earned cash but the smiles will before ever etched onto your face you'll be swooned by the 413 bellvy .

[78D200]

Update?

[deadkelly]

yeah updates

[MrOldart2U]

Originally Posted by Morrigan_Aria

You like the MP purple cam over Comp Cams?
Again, here are the cam specs: http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/Ca...?csid=727&sb=2
Off the cam spec card: rpm range 3000-6200. Valve timing 0.015. Lobe center 110. Intake centerline 106.
Intake Exhaust
valve lash 0.022 0.022
duration 294 294
duration @ .050 lift 248 248
valve lift .525 .525
lobe lift .356 .356


valve timing @ .015 lift open close
intake 41 BTDC 73 ABDC
exhaust 81 BBDC 33 ATDC

I called Comp Cams and they actually recommended another cam instead. This one would give me another 800 rpm range and I can use a lower rpm torque converter.
http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/Ca...?csid=731&sb=2
Off the cam spec card: rpm range 2500-6500. Valve timing 0.015. Lobe center 110. Intake centerline 106.
Intake Exhaust
valve lash 0.016 0.018
duration 282 290
duration @ .050 lift 244 252
valve lift .520 .540
lobe lift .347 .361


valve timing @ .015 lift open close
intake 35 BTDC 67 ABDC
exhaust 79 BBDC 31 ATDC

Ok, also keep in mind that I DID ask for an original Max Wedge style cam. A '63 MW cam had 300 duration intake and exhaust, and .509 lift. I don't have the rest of the specs.

not for sure if any of these are different Morrigan, but......
http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

Just a thought..