64Imperial

My names Bret I am 28 years old I am a proud owner of a all original 1964 Imperial Crown Coupe. it has the 413 in it it needs the engine rebuilt, & seeing lack of pistons available to this engine and needed to be custom made its cheaper to find a 440.

I have found a guy selling 2 440 blocks, 2 cranks ( one been machined & bearings set on it) and 2 sets of heads all for $300. One block is 1970 stock bore the other is a 1969 bored .30 over cleaned & ready for assembly. he also offered to sell me a set of 8 Pistons for $100 they appear to be flat top from the picture he sent me. he said they are new been in the box like 30 years. they are TRW powerforged pistons, number on the box is 8-L2266F and says they are .30 over. By looking at the picture he sent me they look like they are Flat top pistons. or does someone need to go and notch them for where the valves land? and with these being so old would it effect me at all trying to get rings for them?? ( tbh by looking at them they look newer than 30 years but what do i know? ) & do these pistons look beat up to you guys or do the scratches on them matter at all?

Im looking at buying after market edlebrock aluminum heads cause my heads will need rebuilt and i was quoted $800 for that when i can buy aluminum heads for like $900 better to go with higher flowing aluminum ones. my question is if these are flat top pistons what cc chamber size heads i need to get 9.5:1 to 10:1 compression ratio? i will be running pump gas. I am also planning on putting a thumpr cam in it this is not a race car it needs to look good and sound good its being used in car shows and for fun cruise car on weekends and what not. I was looking at putting this cam in it.
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...csid=1497&sb=2
Will this work with a early A-727 push button transmission stall converter. Ive not been able to find the stock stall speed for these and they dont make stall converters for them, you have to change parts out to be able to. i found one guy that said the stall on these was 2000-2200 stock i dont know if that's right maybe you guys know.

I read somewhere with flat top pistons you need like 78 cc heads to get 9.33:1 compression maybe these Trickflow heads would work?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tf.../make/chrysler

I added pictures ( I think ) of the pistons and its box he sent me. This is my first post so I don't know how all this works yet.

This is my first ever engine build im doing alone. my dad passed away a year ago this Valentines Day, everything I know i've learned from him rebuilding my mustang engine i used to have. I hope this is posted in the right spot i couldnt find a forum for 440 engine builds or anything like that.
Pretty much i need to find out if what this guy is selling is usable to me, hopefully ill find out before he sell it. $300 seems cheap for what all id get. Idk what the heads are but they might be sellable as well as one of the blocks / cranks cause i only need one block and crank.

Thank you for your time,

demetri

Hi there. I have two Imperials. 68. They came with the 440. One, has probably a cam upgrade, but do not know the details. Runs good. The other one, I am working on now, still working on tuning it. Gets progressively faster and faster.

First, on your 413. If you sleeve the cylinders to their original bore size, it may be easier to find pistons, because they are not oversize. May be. But of course, the 440 was a better engine.

If you are interested in the car performing and sounding right, the first modification would be dual exhaust. I do not like aftermarket cylinder heads for a street car. The aluminum gives you less of a tolerance to overheating. The standard 906 or later heads have very good flow for the range of cam lift used in street cars.

Yes, your converter is 2200 rpm stall. A 440 does not need as much stall. I do not know about interchangeability, but I would prefer a lower stall converter. I do not like seeing the engine revving wastefully around town or steep hills.

Cams. Your comp cams specs did not show properly. I selected a 268-280, .477-.488 intake, exhaust. The speed range is 1600-5800. I selected this cam because I want some strong upper end for high speed. The relatively short duration should retain sufficient low end torque ... I was not disappointed. The engine has sufficient torque to move the big car around. But you can feel the trade off of torque in the 2000-3000 rpm in order to get more torque above 4000. This is a good trade off for me, but you may want to go with a bit more conservative cam. May be something closer to the original HP cam, 268, 284, .450, .465. This cam has less overlap, and better low range. But of course, all these without a descent exhaust system is more or less meaningless.

64Imperial

the cam im looking at specs below.
Comp Cam's *****' Thumpr™ : High performance street/strip, needs 9:1 compression, 2500+ stall, intake, gears and headers, rough idle.
Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft Grind Number = 287TH7
RPM Range = 2200-6100
Valve lift= .497/ .483
Lobe Lift = .3310/ .3220
Duration = 287/304
Duration @.50 = 235/249
Lobe Separation 107 degrees
Valve Timing = .006

And im planning on running duel exhuast, one thing i cant see to find any headers for a imperial??? i cant just buy headers that fit the 440 cause i bet i would run into clearance issues ? Imperials have alot more stuff under the hood than alot of other cars back then cause all their features that you can run into. you running headers? I wanted to run headers to duel exhaust with a H pipe connecting them and was planning on "dumping " the exhaust right after the mufflers with tips that point down right before the rear axle. so its under the car for that nice sound.

you confirmed the imperials are 2200 stall, any idea that the rear end gears are? i know its easy to figure out just could save some time in the 30 degree wheather if you know i cant find it anywhere online.

And i keep seeing this A body , B body ect but i cant find out what my 64 imperial is i read its a D body but it changed to something else in some year or something so i'm confused and have no clue what body mine is... why cant they just go by year, make , model rather than making liek 4 models under A body ect when searching for things. so confusing.

RacerHog

demetri

I do not use headers, and I doubt if I ever consider them. Too much heat under the hood, too many potential leaks, and too noisy for an Imperial. 440's (and probably 413s) have excellent exhaust manifolds, so I don't think it is worth the hassle. There may not even be one available, so it would have to be a custom job, meaning $$$.


Imperials came only with 2.94 rear gears with nothing else optional. All the way from 59 through 71. In 72, the weaker low compression engines needed a 3.23 so they can move ...


I would think that the cam you are considering is ridiculous for an Imperial. The car is too heavy, it needs low end torque. In fact, it is a very pleasant car to drive with good low end torque. It will be ... annoying to drive such a big car with that cam. Even if you seriously reduce your differential ratio to a 3.55, you will still need the torque. And a 3.55 will be totally out of character for a highway cruising car. A high stall converter will be generating tremendous amount of heat under normal driving, and your gas mileage will be very low.


In my opinion, if you are trying to build a drag racing car, get a smaller and lighter car. Imperials are unbeatable as highway cars, and in the case of my version, a really good high speed car, while still retaining reasonable low speed acceleration (I will probably be able to get a mid 15 second 1/4 mile, my 2nd gear will exceed 100). But trying to turn an Imperial into a drag racer you will have poor results in both the drag strip and in highway driving, plus really bad gas mileage.

64Imperial

yeah its not being built for a drag or strip wont even be racing it. mainly that cam for the sound. im the opposite my imperial is going to be a loud lopy muscle car sound. rather than the quietest car in the world =P i found some headers that say they fit a imperial but they are on andys auto sports and i dont trust them at all lol but they listed them as $600 each header as painted

demetri

My Imperials are not exactly whisper quiet either. I have loud mufflers. And they sound good under load, even better at WOT, and fairly nice at idle as well. The massive amounts of sound insulation help keep the interior reasonably quiet. But the noise from headers is a high pitch cheesy noise that penetrates the firewall and would be out of character in an Imperial (i.m.o of course) but also annoying in long distance trips. But the impractical aspects pointed out earlier are not matter of opinion though.


I have heard that the newer Mustangs are using speakers on their exhaust trying to mimic muscle car sounds, and the computer ECU reads the engine rpm and throttle position and produces a signal to the speakers to mimic these sounds and give the impression of performance ...

64Imperial

yeah i could see that about the headers and wow really speakers?? lol

RacerHog

Headers can be challenging to find... But they work very well....

demetri

The way headers work, as I understand it, is as follows.

First, they eliminate the restrictions from the manifolds. This is a small issue for the 440's unless you go well over 5K rpm, because the manifolds are decent.

Second, is they tune the exhaust pulses, so they help in scavenging and even with intake flow (with large valve overlap cams) in certain rpm ranges, which should be well matched to the cam and gearing, but at the expense of other speed ranges. For a drag racing car geared to cross the 1/4 mile, say at 5500 rpm, a boost in the 5000-5500 torque range may be worthwhile, even if it costs you a bit in the 4000-4500 rpm.

A heavy car with a 2.94 that will almost never see anything above 5000 rpm may not benefit from the headers at all. But it will suffer all the consequences discussed above. I think there is a good reason why OEM's rarely/never specified headers in production cars. I think a 413 letter car with a cross ram intake had cast iron headers, and the hemis came with cast iron headers, which were probably expensive to build, but no tubular thin wall steel. In a drag racing car that is driven 1/4 mile at a time you can tolerate a lot compromises, but on a car that will be driven on the street, not so much....

RacerHog

Handsdown... Even from Idle... Headers / tubed exhaust will out perform cast iron exhaust manifolds.

Tell this story to the auto MFG for putting Heads / Tubed Exhaust on Mustangs Cameros and SRT's and the early day muscle cars and you will get laughed out of (Dodge) town. Even the import industry used them....

Just my 2 cents

64Imperial

well saying if i could find headers id put them on but like noone makes headers for a 64 imperial at all for a reasonable price, ill just stick with the manifolds cause its my only option its not worth paying like $1400 for headers that "might" work, at that thye arnt even ceramic coated they are freaking painted

demetri

I agree that I may be laughed at, urban myths die hard (may be this is a rural myth who knows). I also agree that even a poor set of headers will out perform a poor exhaust manifold (most were indeed poor).

RacerHog

Check with Hedman Hedders.... i think they still list a set for the C-Body cars... not 100 % on how the fit is... but might be worth a look at?
Other than that... Custom is all I am aware of....

Drag Pak

Even bad headers can be good, or even better, depending on how much you smash them,

RacerHog

.........

demetri

[QUOTE=Drag Pak;131889]Even bad headers can be good, or even better, depending on how much you smash them,

Good and bad are relative. Relative to the person, and the application. Fortunately, when owning a Chrysler big block, you do not have to be so desperate to make power. Stock manifolds do just fine. But one thing to learn from this video is that adding a bit of restriction on your exhaust system is not going to kill you.


And BTW, the 64 Imperial is not a C body (I am sure R-H knows that, but 64 may not). The 64 Imperial was still a body-on-frame car. From 67 on, Imperials were closer to C-bodies, but were still NOT C-bodies. They did share some parts, example glass, and some brake components.

64Imperial

thanks for that info all this A,B,C, D, F body crap been confusing me so my 64 is a imperial body then i assume shares with no other cars? headman has headers on andysautosport.com that SAYS they fit imperial but i dont truct andysautosports they seem cheap to me. and the headers they list are liek $550 EACH header sold separately and they are painted not even ceramic coated. While people are responding on here how you guys feel about a year 1976 dodge motorhome 440? Linked it below.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=218&ad=38117...h=440&ad_cid=7
This is local to me seems not a bad price, i asked how long it been out of the vehicle he says 7-8 years. i asked if he took the fluids out he said yes but put all new fluids in it before he stored it. he said he was keeping it for himself but lost his business and cant use it anymore. says it turns over and everything and it ran when he took it out. think this block is any good for what i want? i mainly just want the block the rest is junk i dont need. says it has 83,000 miles on it

I was also looking at them stealth heads from 440source.com they are like $499 eac not bad at all but id like to run a cam thats a little higher than .500 lift anyone know if 440source can upgrade the springs from the single spring to do so? im going to call them tomorrow maybe ill get a reply before then. its going to cost me $800 to completely recondition my stock heads why not pay $200 more for brand spanking new ones?

Drag Pak

I believe you would be best to stick with a set of pre 1970 hi-po 440 exhaust manifolds if you can find a set for a reasonable price. Just have them high temp cast colour powder coated and run a full 3" exhaust. You are not going to make that car leap, but you can make it a great low, mid, and reasonable high range cruiser.

RacerHog

That would be correct... The Imperial is just that...
that 440 looks and sounds like a decant deal.Nice and complete for the most part..
I also agree.... that headers are more of a preference, but not overly needed.

Just my 2 cents

demetri

I had seen a dyno testing posted in another forum of a low compression 440 with a ~0.440 intake lift. They tried the HP manifolds, and standard manifolds, and showed no difference. The HP manifolds were just a gimmick to sell muscle cars. May be the 2.5" pipe as opposed to the 2.25" of the standard manifold could make some difference ... When I was about to start the partial tear down on my car, I considered them, and decided against them. I doubt that even these were worth their money.


As I recall, they had tried headers on that engine, and they gained something like 15 or 17 hp in the 5K range.


I think drag racing is way over-rated in the USA. There is a lot more going on after the first 1/4 mile. This is a big country, after all. Ability to cruise at high speed and have good high speed acceleration is more important to me than the 1/4 mile. A car that can do 1/4 mile in 13 seconds and cannot cruise at over 100, and cannot exceed, say 130-140 seems wasteful horsepower to me ... Even a Toyota Camry will pass you on the highway.

Drag Pak

Deleted - Off Topic

RacerHog

Ok.... Now Back to 64Imperials build....

Sorry for getting a little off topic..

So have you decided to do a 440 or are you sticking with the 413?

64Imperial

sticking with the 440, why not, wont cost much more to just upgrade and i like cubic inches so 440 it is. and if i get 440 heads from what ive read the heads are different cause the sparkplugs go under the manifold on the 440 and on top of a 413. but i guess it wouldnt matter too much if i get that engine looks like it has the 440 manifolds on it too. those being 1976 manifolds those wouldn't have some kinda Co2 sensor spot would they?
and im looking to just aim for 9.25(ish):1 compression. that way it gives me some wiggle room incase i move somewhere thats at a lower elevation cause dont you need lower CR at lower elevations? plus that 9.25:1 i could run that cam i wanted to run. I called hughes they said that Cam has to be 9.25 or lower CR if i ran higher i would have to run the 383/400 whiplash cam in it instead of the one for the 440 but then it wouldnt sound the same cause the more cubic inches. any idea how much different sound wise though?

RacerHog

Not going to have sensors in those manifold.......
Sounds like a good game plan, and fitting rite into the Budget....
Cant wait to see things come together....

64Imperial

thanks i wasnt sure when co2 sensors were introduced =P but i guess when ever computers came into play that was like early 80s right? anyways what heads should i do, if i used cast heads its going to cost $800 bucks to get them redone at the shops here. for that price it wouldnt be much more to get aluminum heads:

Cast heads redone: $800 ( with them ported to max to match gaskets )
Edlebrock E-street: $1500( work up to .600 lift )
440source Stealth :$1000 ( seem to not work with .500+ lift though May spend more making it where they can with duel springs )
Cam im looking at is .518 lift with 1.5 rockers and .552 Lift with 1.6 rockers

Anyone tell me what exactly the different rockers do and would it be worth looking at going to 1.6? or it not worth it? .552 lift too big for this build?
Again ill be wanting 9.25(ish):1 compression

the stock heads i have are on my 64 413 ( 74.5 cc chamber size Idk what head i want to say they are the 516's ) and then id have the 76 motorhome heads what ever those are.

RacerHog

You know your going to also have to rebuild the 440's bottom end? ... Rite.
Might need to check to see what that is going to cost you approximately..

My recommedation for heads would be as follows...
1. budget
2. goal of performance.

But what ever head you buy.. It will need to go to a machine shop to be gone threw...

The rocker ratio adds to the lift of the cam. You can look at a cam card to find that info.

Make sure the machine shop you use.. is confident on working on Mopar engines..

Because adding head work, Check, Valvetrain alignment, porting and port matching and Push Rods are going to cost a few bucks to square away...

Just food for though.. and my 2 cents

demetri

Usually larger cam allows even higher compression ratio. The more the duration, the less the "effective" compression ratio, and also the higher the rpm that the torque peaks, where there is more turbulence. Unless the valve hits the piston, the compression ratio can/should go higher.


I think selecting the iron heads is better for overheating insurance.


If you really want to stick with that big cam, you may want to increase your diff ratio from 2.94 to 3.23. I know it is expensive, but it will likely be necessary for driveablity. The 3.23 is a good compromise for acceleration and cruising. And you will be able to rev up the 440 much better. With my 2.94, I have to shift at around 60 to reach 5000 on 1st, and a bit over 100 for 2nd. This is not speedo readings, but GPS.


And, by the way, I think Imperials are the best high speed platforms in the Mopar world ...


How is the interior of your car? Do you have leather? Interior color?

64Imperial

my cars interior is all original only has one little tear on the shoulder of the seat and the driver seat the same corner is sunbaked other than that its just as good as liek year 2000 cars with leather. and my cars automatic 3 speed has the A-727 torqflight push button trans, so i wont be shifting it. with 3.23's what kinda rpm would i be running at on the freeway lets just say 70 mph. I actuallt have thought about changin the rear gears it isnt THAT expensive i think i seen some gear kits for like $280 ish, my budget is $8,000

demetri

You said you have leather? What color is the interior?


Of course you have 727 push-button, nothing else was offered. Same with 68. But in 68, you could manual shift the T-F, without manual shift the transmission will shift too early, and its hard to exploit the high revving engine. I hope the push-button version allows full over ride by the driver. Not sure if it does.


At 75 with the GPS, my tach shows 2500 rpm. I have 235/75/15 tires, which is probably what you have. With the 3.23, you would be doing 2750 rpm. You will lso have about 10% more torque on the driving wheels to help you overcome the dead parts of the torque curve, plus the engine will rev faster and exit the dead areas sooner.