Joshua Lash

hey everyone i'm having hard time deciding what race engine I want to build. I was looking at doing a 400 block with 440 internals to just getting a 440 mega block and then I have always wanted a HEMI 392 all of these motors I'm wanting 1k hp minimum. I'm looking at doing fuel injection, with possible pro charger. not sure I want to deal with boost while staging and be worrying about that. I don't know I'm posting this for ideas suggestions. what you all have had in the past or current what is working best for you? I'm running quick 16 class. looking to spend between 10-15k. hope I get some good feed back from the MOPAR FAMILY!!

RacerHog

Best of luck.... What do you have penciled together so far? That you are already running?
Quick 16 Class 6.00-8.99 ? 1/4 Mile ?

Iowan

1000 hp for 10 to 15k?
Are you talking all in or long block, guess I'm not sure what your asking.

Joshua Lash

[QUOTE=Iowan;144717]1000 hp for 10 to 15k?
Are you talking all in or long block, guess I'm not sure what your asking.[/QUOTE

in long block

Joshua Lash

running 440 BB now, runs 5.7 shifting it at 6200...but dialed in for 6.00 could shift at 6800-7000 no prob motor is a monster, no reason to wing it though car runs the number, pops wont sell me his motor so its coming out seeing its my dads lol. so it only makes sense to make a even bigger monster of a motor just for bragging rights to pops!! and honestly. Ive been jumping all over the place. cant make up my mind reason i have came here to see pros and cons to what everyone else is running. future plan is to run 660 class....low 4's in 1/8. but for now this is what the pocket book can handle. i'm leaning more towards 400 block out the gates quicker kinda motor.....but...HEMI....who doesnt want a hemi!!

Coronet 500

Joshua Lash

weight of the car is 2360 steel body, full cage. its a 65 valiant 2door

Iowan

I believe your budget is going to be the limiting factor here. Hemi anything is going to cost more money up front. A my thinking is if the car is set up for a big block that's probably the way to go. I like the 4.15 stroke crank in a 400 block for just under 500 CID. The 400 block is stronger than the 440 blocks and with even the trickflow 240 heads will produce 760 hp., which is about the limit for a production mopar block. This motor was built and dynoed using a Holley XPE 85 950 carb
The trickflow 270s would've made more power and would have been used but were not available at the time parts were ordered.
allowing for driver but not converter slip this would be a 8.5 @ 160 mph car.

Iowan

I believe your budget is going to be the limiting factor here. Hemi anything is going to cost more money up front. A my thinking is if the car is set up for a big block that's probably the way to go. I like the 4.15 stroke crank in a 400 block for just under 500 CID. The 400 block is stronger than the 440 blocks and with even the trickflow 240 heads will produce 760 hp., which is about the limit for a production mopar block. This motor was built and dynoed using a Holley XPE 85 950 carb . The trickflow 270s would've made more power and would have been used but were not available at the time parts were ordered. Allowing for driver but not converter slip this would be a 8.5 @ 160 mph car.

RacerHog

Sounds like your dad built a pretty stout motor if it's running 5.70'S already.. Kudo's to your Pops !!!! I don't want to take any wind out of your sails, but I think the budget is to soft to run the low 4.xx. I do think you have the rite H.P range.
I like Iowans idea about a 500" motor with the Trick Flow heads....
But let me step out of the box here for one moment. Doing a late model Hemi is a good way to go. 5.7 to a 6.1 are all over the place at the moment. You could procharge or turbo one for good price now days.
And if you miss the bench mark, you can find a used one and or parts to boot.
What are your guys thoughts

Just my 2 cents

Iowan

If it's a start from scratch no motor or trans I would go with a Gen 3., but dreams aren't paid for by money trees. Turbos, computer, EFI and trans can eat up your budget.
Unfortunately there is always more money needed than optimisticly projected in the start. Even a big block will cost more to build than you will plan.$

RacerHog

I do Agree a 500"+ stroker would be easier on the wallet... But Still going to take some work to get the 4.XX number on the board. Not saying it can or wont or has not been done yet...

Coronet 500

Well you asked for suggestions and here is how I think. 2 hp per cubic inch naturally aspirated is a serious engine, in bracket style racing on a limited budget I'd say no. 700 hp sure (500c.i. x 1.4).

If you search 512 stroker 400 vs 440 block you'll end up in For B Bodies only and lots of combos, many street some race no 1000 hp. A lot of talk is made about compression height (short piston) and rod length. In a race engine it's wise to look at the math mainly rod ratio when you can choose. It's well known that the 400 block 451 is near perfect geometry but down 61 cubes from 512.

My thinking is when you stroke and can have more weight spinning with extreme rod angles at repeated high rpm is hard on bearings and more maintainance inspections required. OK on the street but your building a race only engine.

I would probably turbocharge a 451 maybe 470, or supercharge a 500 c.i. 440 block.

Iowan

There is a limit on a production big block and it doesn't matter how you make the power, the oil pan will not hold the crank in the block after the mid 700 hp.. I have seen a 500" 440 with a vortec in a 73 RR in the nines a 133, that's 4000lbs. He went from mid 10s to mid 9s in the period of a month. The last time I talked with the man he was looking for a good block.
edit: this was a blow through carb setup, very simple.

The key to the big block is if you going to make reliable power you need a good aftermarket block..........
all you have to do is pay up sucker. Lol
then it's game on, bigger is better. http://www.indyheads.com/catalog2014.html
look at page 24 for Chrysler blocks.

Iowan

If you haven't been here yet...
http://store.440source.com/
I'm not crazy about some of there parts but I like the lite weight 4.25" crank, just wish it was a 4.15".
I don't know of any of there pistons in race motors but rods and cranks I have. Most of the motors I've seen built use a better quality piston pin ring package.
they have a good read on the big block block and go into depth as to witch 400 block to use. The information there is why if I was going to build for the highest level possible and use a stock block I'd use a 400 block. I do like Dan's idea of the 451 and wind, turbo or supercharged.

Joshua Lash

Hey guys, seriously appreciate all the feed back. i been super busy with work, making all that overtime...you know how it is lol. That overtime is the go go fast money. but back on track here, bummed about the 400. Would really like to see a 1k hp range out of that, but dont want it to turn into a money pit. my pops has 440s...plenty of them. im still hung up on the 400 though, what are yalls thoughts on running it on alcohol with a procharger. ? Im still kicking and tossing here. But im gonna have to make a decision here soon. Big mopar meet at Summit raceway Ohio last weekend of july here in ohio.

Coronet 500

Joshua Lash

Ok so you think the 400 BB with alchohol and procharger would be good then? not the 440. just wanna clarify that.
My dad has hilborn injection he is switching over too. And ive been learning alot about it and i like it ALOT.

Coronet 500

Iowan

It all sounds great but pick a block and see what you can find in the aftermarket!

RacerHog

ProChraged 392....

Iowan

There's a Volare on moparts running 8s with that combo at 3600 lbs. Second thought it's a turbo.

Iowan

I picked my junk in the mid eighties, today if I was starting from scratch I'd go gen 3 hemi and turbo, tube car and mopar bodywork.

Stuntman_Bill

I'm looking at exactly that build-out, more or less, for the '70 440 RB transplant mill in my '66 Charger: fuel injection, forced induction, ideally mid-revs horsepower well north of 800HP. This would be a high-speed touring build & tune (think NASCAR, not NHRA) for long-term "street" use, not strip runs.

Short and sane answer to your plan: Take out a second mortgage, buy a Hellephant, drop it in your rig and enjoy the time you saved running laps at the track, because trying to build out a 1,000HP
Hemi-based engine, even starting with an aftermarket block, for less than 15K...even if you could do it, if you factor in the cost of your time to build such a mill--which no one ever does--just buying a crate motor would be cheaper.

Look, I think I have checked out every possible 440 project build plan, all the strengthening work and parts options, and the bottom line seems to be that whether or not you start with an aftermarket block, you're going to top out at 700-750 HP--for less than the price of a crate motor! That is the key proviso. You're looking at $10-15K for a ~700 HP reliable, naturally-aspirated stroker build. Sure, you can buy a 440/400-block stroker parts kit for $2500, but when you factor in proper block prep, some degree of necessary machining (even starting with an aftermarket block) you can't do in your garage, cost of tools for a proper engine build (assuming you don't have access to a full engine shop)...pretty quick you're getting close to your budget ceiling. And that is without factoring the opportunity cost of using your own labor to build the engine.

("Reliable" is a key factor in this calculation. You can build a 1K HP 440 for under $15K, if you can find a used 14-71 blower on the cheap, And it will grenade on you, in the middle of a drag run, at exactly the wrong time. That is the equivalent scenario I'm weighing in my build planning, the value of not winding up on the side of the freeway between Bismarck and Dubuque with the remains of my bottom end scattered across three lanes because I was running more boost than my "affordable" crankshaft could handle. I've been stranded in Indiana in mid-winter with a block-broke sled. It was a long bus ride home, one that I would have paid at least $500 to avoid.)

Like I said, I'm at this point myself. My '66 came with a 440 out of a '70 Cuda. I bet it's a good block, a fine base for a really strong build engine. Without pulling the engine out of the car, I could build out the block (assuming a visual inspection of the bores was reasonably clean) for 600+ HP and a $10K parts cost. Add some form of forced induction and I might close the hood on my rebuild for $15K for 700-750HP, running 10 lbs. of boost. But that's it. Jack up the boost and I'll end up eating the crank. That's for a mid-range build.

OK, I'd rather spend the money than pick pushrods out of my gums, so let's start building out my block to be capable of running four figures of HP, eventually,. Pull the block, sonic test it, do some serious machining on the deck and bores, get any 1000HP-work done on the bare block, etc. Then start building up from the bottom, starting with a painful-coin forged crank, pricey strengthening work on the mains, girdle kit, etc. Now that you have the block out, you need to at least build up the pistons, rings and rods to be four-figure strong before you put it back in the car. Boom, you're well over the cost of a high-quality aftermarket block already, so you might as well go back and throw out that nicely seasoned OEM 440 block. You're at $5K in parts cost for your one-grand HP mill and you haven't even touched the stock heads yet, let alone built up your fuel and forced induction systems. Those crate engines are sure starting to look good....

Which brings me to the point I'm hijacking your thread to ask: what can an almost fifty year-old stock Mopar block take? (Keeping in mind that HP dyno rating is a terrible metric when your ultimate limiting factor is the structural strength of the block under high load.) Yeah, there's tons of professional 440 builds documented in various mags and web sites claiming over 800 HP for less than twenty grand...and there's even more, far more, real-world stories about less extreme shade-tree 440 builds ending with thrown rods, cracked blocks, etc. Because I'm sitting here with a '66 Charger with a moderately-modified 440 RB/A833 transplant that I picked up for a quite nice price, very fun to drive, great base for really nice rod build...and I'm thinking about throwing away the engine, just to start. Which seems like a lame choice to have to make right away.

Either be happy with a 700 HP ceiling on that block, or plan for an aftermarket block build from the start, that's my conclusion after a month or so of serious research. I park my sled in a garage at work among Ferraris, high-end Porsches and a really nice Cobra replica. Do I want to be able to run with those stock-option rides (~700 HP) or blow them away (850+ HP)? Because Option Two--and I know myself well enough to know which option I will be happy with--seems to mean not doing anything to the engine, because it will be wasted money. I may have more money (not really) than sense when it comes to cars, but I at least like to be methodical about how I waste money on my MPH addiction.

Anyone care to quibble with my logic? 700 HP under the hood would probably be damned fun, especially if I could get some serious weight off of what is an awesome, classic, but old and heavy body and frame. But I won't be happy, ultimately. Or maybe I would. I mean, how high is up? When you're starting with a decades-old stock 440 RB block? What is the horsepower line over which you know you need to start over with an aftermarket block? And we're talking about a seriously beefy, bespoke Mopar big block, whether it's a Gen III or an old-school 426 Hemi casting, if you want four-figure horsepower.

Iowan

Yep I've heard that 1000 hp is going to be 40k plus. Go for it and be the first on your block to have one.