Mopar Forums - Timing on a 318?????

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Timing on a 318?????

So my buddy and I put a new manifold on his 318 duster. Its a edlebrock air gape and we also put a new 650 Carb on as well. it idles fine and when we give it any throttle at all it kills itself out. After explaining this to a friend of ours he thinks that the timing is off. So I dunno what to do to make the timing right. I need help please.

Yeah ive watched that. I didn't like the way it was explained and I dunno how accurate it is. Do you think its ok?

Just listened to it now. Sounds ok but I don't disconnect PCV hose, charcoal canister or EGR hoses. If the engine is warm I see no need to disconnect anything but the vacuum hose at the distributor and stick a golf tee in it.

If your doing performance modifications marking the balancer up to 40 degrees and checking your total advance when you rev the engine is a good idea. Trying to get the most total without spark knock (pinging) while accelerating will give best performance. If you have a tach and can have total advance at 2500rpm is better. This you may need to go into the distributor to make internal adjustments or modifications.

Ima give it a shot this morning and see if I cant get her figured out

I did not see what model year you have, and is this a stock camshaft?

I never set timing "by the book" for many reasons............

First you may or may not have the original distributor, I DON'T!!! Mine is a performance dist. with a short mechanical curve

Second, any performance cam further modifies "what the engine likes"

Third, factory timing specs from 66 (California) and from 68 Federally, and getting worse about 71--72, were purely for SMOG regulations, and NOT for performance or economy.

Get yourself a timing light and vacuum gauge. Hook the vacuum gauge to full manifold vacuum, unplug the vacuum can on the distributor, and with the engine fully warmed, idling at a good slow idle, slowly move the distributor for maximum vacuum. This should also coincide with maximum idle RPM. Readjust the idle mixture screws for best idle, reset idle speed if necessary, and recheck

Now see "where you are" with the timing light. You will probably "see" at LEAST 10* BTC and maybe more. I run mine with a mild cam at about 15--17 BTC at idle.

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Now the PROBLEM with "smog" distributors is that they typically have a very long, very slow advance curve, and if you bump up the idle (initial) timing, this long slow curve will put the high speed (total mechanical) advance out too far. You should document what you have so that you know what you have and what to do

There is a couple of ways to do this.

FIRST you should consider CHECKING that the timing mark is actually accurate by using a piston stop

Next, you can either "degree" the balancer, use stick on timing tape, or just use masking tape to make a temporary mark, OR you can use a modern "dial up" timing light

With a "dial up" light it's a simple matter of revving the engine up until you are sure the mechanical is "all in," then zero the marks to TDC with the light "dial up" and directly read the timing

CAREFUL. These lights seem to have problems on MSD, Google it. Well documented

The other ways are to measure around your balancer carefully to get the circumference, then figure out how this works out in degrees per inch, and then lay out 10 degree marks on the balancer so that you can see them with a standard light

It is generally accepted that a good starting point for a performance distributor mechanical curve is between 18--22 degrees. What this means, example, is with 22*, let's say the engine can tolerate 36 total at full throttle. 36 - 22 = 14 degrees initial timing

Now if you don't want to or can't afford to recurve your dist, there is STILL some hope. FBO offers a DIY add in limiter plate and spring kit to shorten and quicken the advance.

Or, you can just "fudge" between the two settings, IE set the dist. for about 36, and go back and "see" where the initial ends up.

By the way, when checking high speed total, (to repeat vacuum disconnected) when "you think" you have it where it's "all advance," look at the mark and blip the throttle to be sure it actually IS all advanced. If this makes you uncomfortable, do this with the engine "luke warm" and the fan belt disconnected

The article here

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/...d.php?t=158842

posted by AbodyJoe is a VERY good read

Christine, my Fury III w/ 318, would die at the
street light "starting line". I had the mechanic do all the normal stuff, i.e. timing/tuning. Still had problems. Then a backyard mechanic told me that my accelator pump was bad. He told me that before even looking at it. I was amazed, I bought a carb rebuild kit and ONLY replaced the accelerator pump. Christine no longer stalls at the "starting line". Hope the idea works because it is a very cheap easy repair.

Hold true with a Magnum 360?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 440roadrunner (Post 111291)

Very well written, and awesome info first off... Second does this method hold true with a 98 Magnum 360 that has been converted to carburetor to go into an 86 W250? Also should I modify the 98 distributor wiring to mate with the 86 electronics or just slap in the 86's distributor?

The 318 in my fury would literally die the first time any gas was given to it when it was timed to factory specs. It was so far off I was convinced the chain had ‘skipped a tooth’, a phenomenon I’m not sure to this day is possible, but something was definitely very off. So I did ear timing on it and wham! All the power came back. you just have to back the dizzy off if you ping under load.

There are a TON of ways to ear time, and the techniques are almost endless. As a kid, here’s what I did: keep advancing the distributor until I got juuuuust past the highest idle, then back it off about a quarter inch and lock it down. it’s a real good baseline to work with. Just make sure your vacuum is really buttoned up or the ear timing will be waaaay off. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave E (Post 112984)

In general, "yes." timing holds true. I don't think you can mod the 98 distributor.....if memory serves, it has a half moon shaped trigger that only acts as a cam positioner.

Incidently if you want to dump the EFI stuff off that I might be interested. At present I'm actually running Holley TBI EFI on my 318. (Don't need nor want the "beer keg" intake itself.) Shoot me a PM if interested.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave E (Post 112984)

Use the 86 dist

Hi everyone
I'm new to this forum I have a 74 dodge dart with a 318 I just but the car it started fine when I bought it but a couple a days ago I took it out for a test drive and it hesitated to accelarate got back to my garage and haven't been able to get it started since then I replace the ballets resistor, module , pick up coil and coil. but it cranks but won't start any suggestion

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mopardart74 (Post 113268)

Check for the basics... Air, fuel,and spark... sounds like you have eliminated spark... Although I would verify you have it at the plugs. I once had the distributor driveshaft shear off at the oil pump on a 440. So everything seemed to be working but the distributor wasn't turning. Yours sounds more like fuel though. Unhook a fuel line at carb and have someone spin the engine over see if fuel pumps out... should come out with a bit of force not just dribble. Also does the gas smell old? Like lacquer? Bad gas clogged filter etc... hope this helps!

I check fuel and it get good fuel but I check the coil wire and the spark looks orange yellowage
But thank you for the advice

The other day I was cranking it and it backfired also I'm really lost on it

Did you set the gap on your " pick up coil "?

If you start your own thread you'll get more responces.

distributor advancing problems and timing problems

I just recently bought a 75' dodge D100 with a 318. I did a tune up on the motor, spark plugs with correct gapping, wires, cap and rotor, valvue cover gaskets, oil change, thermostat, change to electronic fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator and gauge, new fuel filter, cleaned fuel lines out. It started right up but timing was off, originally before changing the cap an rotor the distributor was set to 180* out so I set it to factory and timing still off. Now my problem is that when trying to advance the distributor the vacuum advance hits the firewall not allowing me to advance it so thats where im stuck also is there a chance the timing could have jumped and the timing chain is bad. Now I did notice my harmonic balancer looks to be going out as well. Help please.

You guys should start your own thread so "things" do not get confused.

First thing I do on ANY unknown engine is use a piston stop to check the timing mark. You can buy one or make one

Remove the no1 plug and make sure the piston is down quite a ways. Remove the battery ground for safety. With a wrench, rotate the engine until rotation stops. With a commercial, or adjustable stop, you may need to adjust the length. You are not trying to stop the piston at TDC but rather down in the bore some amount.

With the engine stopped against the device, carefally make an accurate temporary mark under TDC on the timing tab onto the balancer.

Now do the same thing, rotating CCW.

You will have two temporary marks some distance apart. True TDC will be halfway in between, and if the original is correct that is where it will be.

Piston stop:

https://static.summitracing.com/glob...e/cca-4795.jpg

Second, you may be confuse about "180" off. An engine will not run with the distributor 180 off, which is 1/2 turn.

Here's the deal. EVERYBODY who works on these should be able to install and adjust timing so the thing will start and run.

There "is" a spec on installing the distributor gear and distributor, BUT IT DOES NOT MATTER. You can simply throw the driver gear in, and shovel the distributor in after it, and plug the no1 plug wire in the right hole, and it will run.

A copy of one of my other posts

Quote:

Originally Posted by 440roadrunner (Post 92526)

The no1 cylinder must be on the compression stroke, and the no1 wire must go to wherever the rotor points. If the rotor is NOT pointing to the "by the book" no 1 cap tower, it will run fine, but if you want to do it correctly it simply is not that difficult and takes VERY little time

To time a SB Mopar:

1--- Determine that no1 is on the firing stroke and there are two ways to do that. If either valve cover is still off, look at either the no1 or no6 valves, with the timing marks on TDC. IF both no1 valves are closed, no1 is ready to fire (compression) and if no6 valves are both closed, then no6 is ready to fire. BE CAREFUL because the opposite two will be nearly equally open (used to be called "split overlap) and it can fool you

The alternate way to determine compression, is to remove no1 plug, stick you finger in the hole, and either bump it on the starter, or wrench it around until you BEGIN to feel compression. You may need to go around once to be sure. When you start to feel compression, pay attention to the timing mark, and slowly bring the engine up NOT to TDC but to where you want the timing, IE 10-12 with a bone stock cam, or 15-20 with a hot cam

2---If there is any reason to suspect the distributor gear is in wrong, or this is a new build, bring the marks to TDC, and check the position of the slot in the gear. IT should point to the far left (drivers side) front intake manifold bolt, which is a close as you'll get to "straight ahead." If it does NOT, as the poster above suggested, just take a big screwdriver and "walk" the gear up out of the helix, and correct it

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparf...1&d=1347685574

3---(If you performed step 2, back the engine up with a wrench about 1/8 turn, and bring the marks back NOT to TDC, but where you want the timing.)

Next, with the rotor pointing towards the area of the "by the book" no1 hole, and the vacuum can "in the clear away from the firewall, drop the distributor in. By rotating the distributor body, you should reach a point where the vacuum can is clear of the coil and the firewall, and the rotor is pointing to the no1 cap tower

4---Now, if you have points ignition, use a test lamp or ohmeter, rotate the dist. RETARD (cw) and move it slowly ADVANCE (ccw) until the points just open

If you have breakerless set the dist. so that the reluctor tip is centered in the pickup coil.

5---Start the engine!!!! Notice that I did not say, "prepare for fire out of the carburetor," nor did I say "screw endlessly with the distributor for hours on end."

If you followed this correctly the engine should start!!! and run!!!!

6---Now take your timing light and adjust the timing as necessary.

Some aside:

I ALWAYS, on an unknown engine, CHECK actual TDC accuracy. To do this, get, buy, or make a piston stop.

Like this:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/...1&d=1347066506

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/...1&d=1347066506

Remove the no1 plug, make sure the piston is down, and remove the battery ground. Install the device, and wrench the engine gently over until the piston stops against the device. Make an accurate, temporary mark directly under 0 (TDC) on you timing tab, onto the balancer.

Now do the exact same rotating the engine CCW

Now you'll have TWO temporary marks, and true TDC will be 1/2 way between. If your old mark is accurate, that is where it will be.

You should also either get the proper size timing tape, or mark your balancer so you can see what your timing curve is doing. Measure all the way around the balancer, accurately, with a small flexible tape. Calculate how many inches per degrees it takes to work out 40*, carefully measure that off with the tape, and mark the wheel. Use a small square and a scribe, and carefully deepen the mark with a small file. I used to do this lying on my back looking up at the wheel, easier than bending over on my head.

Now you can take dividers and divide the 40 in half for 20, half again for 10. Then use your ten setting to mark 50, 60* which will be needed for checking vacuum advance. You can get as fussy as you want, but 5* marks are really all you need. You can get an idea of your accuracy, by rotating any two marks under the timing tab, and checking if they line up at 10ATC, 10BTC, etc.

Some addtional....................Some distributors ARE NOT indexed AKA the rotor to the drive tang as they originally were. This means if you slap the gear in the engine "by the book" the rotor will not point to the expected hole. In your case, where the vacuum is beating against the firewall, The EASY way out of this is to simply rotate all 8 plug wires in the appropriate direction one hole

Some engines "do care" which hole the wires are in, there are some industrial 4 whangers, and the V6 odd / even fire engines.........have every other pair of cylinders "closer together" in time, so if you move the wires one hole in these engines, you cannot make them run right (Google "rotor phasing)

NOW on our Mopars and most US V8s, it simply does not matter. The only reason that there was a "certain way" to install the distributor and wires is...........

So the assembly line folks can wrench, repeat

So the plug wires "lay" nice

and so the tune up mechanics "see" what they expect to see.

Thanks roadrunner, first time on this site dont know how to do a tread lame yes I know I might be blind. But I timed it manually then after got I got it running used a timing gun to double check the timing and it was off. Now when I got the truck the distributor was a half turn out thats why I did the manual timing, so I set timing to factory spec and timing still sounded off thats why I used the gun. But it still turned over both ways, stock specs and half turn. Now when it was on stock specs tried advancing it to get the timing marks correct but the vacuum advance was hitting the firewall not allowing me to turn it any further thats where im having a problem.

Ok so just rotate the wires over one spot now would I do that clockwise or counter clockwise

If you having troubles like you describe the ONLY way to do it is go back to basics and reset the distributor housing to factory spec as described by 440.

If you jump a wire over you'll be fighting this thing and never know what was really wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by norcalitwin26 (Post 117498)

Ok so just rotate the wires over one spot now would I do that clockwise or counter clockwise

Well you have to use your head. Pull the no 1 wire out of the cap so you know "where you are"

Look at the advance. "Let's say" it's banging against the firewall.. I ASSUME the advance is over on the passenger side where it belongs? So you need to move the distributor COUNTER clockwise (left) to get the advance away from the firewall.

One way to "estimate" this is to loosen the distributor, and sort of brace a screwdriver as a pointer on part of the engine, pointing to one plug tower. Now just rotate the dist. so the "next" tower is in it's place. You will of course need to re-check the timing

Now think about what you did. You rotated the distributor LEFT. This means you need to rotate all the plug wires RIGHT one hole You've already got no1 out. Just start there, pull the next plug wire, and move it one hole to the right, and go 'round the cap. When you get done, put no 1 into the one that's left.

If you "screw up," this is no big deal..........review what I posted above.

The vacuum advance is on the driverside