Newf Wit a 440

I think I'll definitely go with the good forged over th KB's, especially if my heads can give me the a 9.5 to 1 Comp. Have you ever done any port work with templates and die grinders on heads?? I am very handy working with metal and hand tools as I've been in the service body building trade as a fabrication welder and am currently a high pressure alloy tig welder working with these tools daily. I wouldn't consider myself an amature with a grinder that's for sure. My work is constantly being x-rayed, " dye penned" with some ultra sonic and Mag particle testing as well.

Cheers,

Joe Welder

condor74

I have not done any port work with the Templates although I am getting ready to order me the set from Mopar Performance and have a go at it. I have cleaned up bowl areas and blended the blows, and port matched after larger valves have been installed. I have heard good reviews from people who have used the porting templates though.

challenger

Welcome glad to have ya' aboard

Newf Wit a 440

Thank you, I seem to have found a great place.

Cheers,

Newf Wit a 440

Would you believe that for me to order those same templates here in Edmonton, Alberta(8 hrs from Montana border), I would have to pay $50.00 for them. They retail for $16.99 from MP. Oh well, If that is the route I go it will still be 20 times cheaper than buying new heads.

I've been following an article on Mopar Muscle Mag website dating back to 2010 about porting production BB cylinder heads and have a question. They make reference to the possibility of welding or spraying metal into the open chamber design heads (i'm guessing my 78' 440 has this design) and that this would be preferable than using a quench piston. Do you know of anyone that has done this successfully? I mention this cause I have access to proper welding rods and equipment and can do the pre/post weld heat treating at work. I specialize in pressure pipe alloy welding exotic metals such as Stainless, Aluminum, Inconels, Monels, Chrome and Carbon. I have welded cast iron( with stick using Ni-rod) and cast aluminum(TIG).

Again I'm not looking to get more than 350-400hp out of my engine so if I can do that without all that effort I will, I just thought that since I am a welder with access to the facilities and will be getting the heads done anyways, it would just be my own time for the welding. Also I think I will study a little more into the port work as I have a knack for using die grinders and working with metal.

Cheers,

Joe Welder

P.S. you've probably come across this article but in case you haven't: http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/t...ads/index.html

condor74

If you wanted to get the porting templates and have a go at it, go for it. Port matching the intake and exhaust also has some merit. Anything above that, I would not worry about. I still think you could get some good aluminum heads and stay under budget and not have to worry about porting. At this horsepower level and being it is your first build, I would not worry about adding material and welding up parts of the head for modification.

The nice thing about building a stout bottom end means you can always upgrade the heads later.

Newf Wit a 440

I think I will go with some new heads after all. It seems like way too much effort, especially since I'll have no way to measure my flow gain. Do you have any experience with 440 source stealth alum heads?? I'm thinking if there is any truth to their advertising then they would be the best choice within my budget.

Cheers,

Joe Welder

condor74

I personally have not had any experience with the heads. I have read plenty of good reviews and would not hesitate to give them a try. If you wind up running a very agressive cam and feel the need to upgrade the springs to something stiffer, you may want to consider higher performance spring retainers. Other than that, they should be good to go.

Newf Wit a 440

So, I'm finally putting a package together for my 440, here is where I'm at. Again any advice and recomendations ect are welcome. Since this is my first build and I'm not sure how to do all the math, I hope someone can tell me if this is going to be relatively close to my hopes of 350-375hp. I am thinking of using 3.55 gears and a 2500 stall. Still don't have a body but will hope to find a Dart/Duster or Coronet to put it in.

　
440 Rebuild (goal of 9:1 ratio 350-375hp) 3.55 gears & 2500 stall)
Items re-used/reconditioned:
1.Block machined and cleaned
2.Crankshaft ground or polished
3.Rods resized with ARB bolts
5.Rotating assy balanced
6.Rebuild 452 heads for 9:1 Comp
Parts needed:
Oil pump
Fuel pump
Electronic ignition
Plugs and wires
750-800 CFM Carb
Edlebrock intake
Bearings for complete rebuild
Pistons, wrist pins and moly rings (375hp)
Oil and freeze plug kit
Complete gasket kit (thinner head gasket .020?)
Camshaft complete kit for 227-4 Xtreme Energy Cam
Headers

Thanks all for your help if there is anything I've left out please let me know.

Cheers,

Joe
　
　

　

bremereric

Lifters
Pushrods
distributor shaft bushing
rocker shafts/arms

Newf Wit a 440

Was planning on reusing the pushrods, rockershafts and arms if they will work. the lifters come with the Cam Kit. Missed the distributor shaft bushing though, thanks.

Joe

bremereric

Do the springs...retainers and locks come with the kit?

Newf Wit a 440

Yes I believe so, I'm wondering what is the most power I can get out of this engine and still have a decent street ride. Not too lumpy? I did pick a budget of $4000 but that is flexible. The local block shop says that they want $1100 CAN. For set of refurbished 452 heads with performance springs. Valve guide cut for a 580 lift But only stock valves. I think if this is what I'm looking at spending just to have the cast heads done I might as well go with the Edlebrocks or stealths and aim for 9.5 or 10:1 if I can get it. Would stock rods and cast crank be suitable for this application? That's with L2355F pistons and a Extreme energy 262Cam.

Newf Wit a 440

Just got back from the carwash cleaning the engine and tranny. Now that it's clean how an I ID the Transmission?! Thanks. It's tear down time!

Joe Welder

Newf Wit a 440

So here is where I'm at with the 440. I got the engine cleaned up at the carwash today, the transmission is still attached. First I need to get that off and the flexplate and flywheel and mount this baby to my stand. I,ve been cover to cover on my new book and I'm going to start the tear down this weekend. I'm thinking of going for the best street engine I can make as I may never get another chance.

As far as what's gonna stay and go I've considered it pretty thoroughly and I don't think I need a forged crank. According to some other advice on other sites and the Block Shop down the road, that crank is good for 500hp. If I get 375-400hp out of this rebuild I will be more than happy.

So factory crank and rods(upsize the bolts), new Speed Pro forged pistons , new Stealth Alum Heads, Xtreme Energy 274H Cam kit, 750 Holley 4BBL carb, an Edelbrock Performer intake, MSD distributor, Mallory Ignition, and a 22-2800 Stall with my 727 torqueflite Transmission.

Machining and Balancing $1100
Pistons $400
Alum Heads $1000
Cam Kit $470
750 Carb $320
Intake $210
KMJ Stall $240
440 Source Gasket kit $50
MSD&Mallory Ign $420

Total so far: $4210.00 Not includin tax and a bunch of other stuff I will need. I'm budgeting $5000 for the engine portion. I'll keep you updated on the build and when things start coming together I'll post an album of the whole build. My decision on these parts is not in stone yet, but this is how its been shaping up so far. Any advice or tips that you have are welcomed. This will be a job as I do not believe in credit for toys. That said, it could take a while. Luckily I have opportunities to make extra coin working in the oil patch here in Alberta so, if there is no flow...its no go. Hope to hear from all you experienced builders out there, I'm gonna need all the help I can get. So far I have an engine stand, hoist, a good book, the internet, and all the hand tools that I need, now its time to get er done.

Joe Welder

Garys69RR

Garys69RR

I like the casting 2780915 cylinder head for econo builds. The 906 head is also a great one for street use. It came on the late 60s 383 and 440 magnum motors. The 906 has larger combustion chambers. Shoot for a squish/quench clearance of .035 to .040 inch. Single plane intake like the RPM Performer, Edelbrock carb, good cam and rebuilt bottom end should make a healthy street motor.

Newf Wit a 440

I'm leaning strongly on the 440 Source Stealths, with a flat top piston, a mild cam 268/280 .477 lift, can be used with stock converter. and a performer intake. I've read that dual plane are better for street performance. I really have no idea as this is my first build. Why do you recommend single? Are the stealths replicas of the 915 closed chamber heads? What kind of compression do you think I will get with this setup? I'm hoping for the 9.5-10:1 375hp in the 4600 RPM range. Pretty much stock 70' 440 Mag. Any idea what kind of 4bbl was in that stock engine?? Thanks for your input.

Joe Welder

Newf Wit a 440

Well, after some research into those Stealths, I think I'll keep my money a little closer to home. No disrespect to anyone who buys asian, thats just my personal preferernce. Now if I couldn't afford to get made in the USA Edelbrocks, then Stealths it would be. Again, no disrespect. Does anyone know how much difference the 84cc performer heads are, compared to the 88's (with regards to compression) Also is that the only difference in the two heads? I am planning to use a zero deck forged piston and stock rods. I still haven't figured out how to calculate the Comp ratio with this info, if anyone can help with that great.

Joe Welder

bremereric

It is easy when you use this calculator. Pick you head gasket and input the compressed thickness and bore.

http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html

Newf Wit a 440

Thanks, one question on the compression calculation. The CC's on the heads i.e. 84cc, 88cc, is that the number of cc's in each combustion chamber? Or is that total?

Joe Welder

Archer

joe -

I believe the cc rating is for the heads only, but could be wrong on that one.

Personally, unless you plan on racing, the cast heads are fine and the Mopar Orange or Chrome ignition box + dist. are more than adequate.

Archer

Newf Wit a 440

You know Archer the more I learn about how to make power out of this engine, the more I'm inclined to agree. I just might clean up the Irons,(MP port template kit), put some zero deck pistons in there and a mild cam(268 grind), new springs and a dual plane intake and a Holley carb. I've read that some Edelbrock carbs are hard to tune, also I'm uncertain of the CFM still. Any advice in that area? Also do you think 400hp is achievable with this setup? Even close to it and I'll be happy. With a cam like the 268H comp cam .480 lift, where do you think my torque peak would be? I'm wanting to keep it low for a street engine, say around 4500.

Thanks,

Joe Welder

bremereric

Go here and register for Comp Cam's Cam quest software. Download it and use it to get a close hp answer.

http://www.compcams.com/downloads/register.asp

Newf Wit a 440

Thanks once again Bremereric, you are an encyclopedia of info. The Compression ratio using a Felpro compressed to .039 with .410 dia and .030 over and Iron heads(avg 92cc) worked out to be 9.6 I know that is a rough est. But it gets me in the ball park. I'll try that 3/8 12 point when I get home and let you know how it works out.

Cheers,

Joe

Archer

Joe -

For a pure street machine that's reliable and easy to drive: Based on the Holley calculations, a mild 440 will do well with a 600 CFM carb; a mild race rig will handle around 800, depending on max RPM. Most mild 440s are going to run comfy to about 6000 rpm.

A nice compromise would be Holley 750 Vac secondary.

I've only heard good things about the Edelbrock carbs for street use. Usually about as plug and play as you can get.

For the track, the Holley double pumpers do give you a better kick in the pants and are easier to tune, one you get used to dropping a hot float bowl and metering block ... They do burn more gas in my experience, unless really fine tuned and even then they can get thirsty.

One thing I've noticed. If you go Holley - keep it all Holley. Some of the aftermarket parts or Holley look alikes can be great or problematic, sort of a crap shoot. Ditto for the ignition - stay with something that at least says Mopar on it.

These guys are pretty good price and service wise:

http://www.mopartsracing.com/index.html

BTW _ like you're idea about a 2500 stall converter and 3.55 gears. Should be a blast to drive anywhere and have little spool up time.

Archer

Newf Wit a 440

I played with the software to see what hp and torque I could come up with. It seems that I can make 370-400hp with the factory heads, with template porting. A couple of things I wasn't sure of when entering components was, (1) the Edelbrock dual plane performer intake, would that be considered high flow or max flow induction. (2) in the head selection would cast 452's be the same selection as 2 Valve lowperf with pocket port.(if I was going to template port)? One other thing, I heard that to much CFM isn't good either depending on your other components, I was thinking 660 might be a happy medium? Anybody with a setup like this I would like to hear from you. Thanks,

Joe

Archer

Joe -

Still gonna go with a 750 vac secondary, Too much CFM can make you bog a it, but when I first built my 440 (somewhat similar to yours) that's what I used. When I got a little heavier into racing, I switched to an 850 DP that I'm still using and is probably a little too big.

The dual plan manifolds are considered high flow and should still give good low end torque. If you have room, a 1" 4 hole spacer might help too.

Archer

Newf Wit a 440

Do you think I would be better off building the short block first and then finding a body before cam selection? I'm getting the feeling that the engine should almost be built around a body and not the other way around. I could refurbish the block, rods, crank, heads and in the mean time wait to do the assembly and cam selection until I figure out what I'm gonna put this in. I am eyeing up different styles and bodies such as Scamps, Darts,& Satelites. I haven't actually been in any of these cars, just seen pics of them for sale around here and they seem to be a good fit.

Cheers,

Joe

Archer

Joe -

Short answer, yes. Having an idea about the weight and general use of the car is kinda important when selecting parts.

Depends on how specific you want to get.

The following is just my opinion, so take it FWIW:

For a cruiser and "fun" street machine (let's say 2000 - 4000 average rpm range), milder is usually better and you can "do" whatever you like as long as you know what you're getting yourself into.

For a racer where you want ever last HP or foot-pound of torque, then things get a little more exacting. You're also going to be looking into a higher rpm cam / intake & exhaust, that might sound mean on the street but be a bear to drive - as in "not fun" due to a lousy bottom end or cheap with gas prices.

Some examples:

If plan on opening it up on the highway, 4.88 gears might not be your best option and neither would 4.10s - the 3.55s are great for that, but not so good on a track specific car.

For a heavy B-body you need a lot of low end torque to get moving off the line (or sometimes just start moving) , for a smaller/lighter car like an A-body you might want more top end. The cam and intake selection factors into that, as does stall speed on the converter and rear end ratio.

(Yes, you can lighten the hell out of a big car, but it requires and time.)

Your check list above sounds like a good B-body street/cruiser. Might want to consider the pipes behind the headers (diameter, x-pipe, type of mufflers, etc) as well as the lifters and rest of valve train that B mentioned.

The last or maybe the first thing to consider is your budget. In the 80's I was all into racing the Charger. These days, it's just too expensive, so it's a little more street-able or getting that way.

BTW - there's a pretty big difference in weight between the Duster/Scamp and a Satellite!

Just hard to make specific recommendations without knowing what you're planning on doing.

Hope that helped or at least got you thinking.

Archer