1977 Power Wagon

77powerwagon · 01-07-2008, 06:24 PM

Hello all, I am new to forums and this is first time to post. I have a 1977 Power Wagon, 318, balanced, edlebrock intake, comp cam, holley 4-barrel, bored to .30 over, all MSD ignition, headers and glass packs. The transmission was working good before the motor work but now that rebuilt motor is in, the transmission isn't responding in any gear. It has NP 203 transfer case, which I usually kept the front drive shaft removed, while on pavement. When I put it into gear, the front yoke on transfer case is spinning, but nothing to the rear.
Any suggestions?

440roadrunner · 01-07-2008, 08:03 PM

It's been a long time.........

I can't tell from your pictures, is/was this a "full time" 4x4? If so, how did you manage to ever drive it with the front shaft removed?

Has there been some "part time 4x4" conversion done?

How do you know the transfer case is in gear?

Did you have the transfer and automatic split apart? Did you leave something out, like the coupling?

My suggestion is to reinstall the front shaft, and see what happens. Then, to find out if both axles are engaged, jack up one front and one rear, assuming you have no posi unit, or better yet, put all 4's up on jackstands, and see what you get.

Is it possible that you "forgot" you can't drive these with no front shaft?

So therefore we need more info:

Is it full time 4x4?

Did you modify the transfer case?

Are you sure the transfer case is in gear?

77powerwagon · 01-07-2008, 08:32 PM

This is a full time 4x4, I haven't done anything to this truck except for engine rebuild. Before the rebuild, I took the front drive shaft out, using only 2 wheel drive. Mainly for gas millage, it ran fine till rod went bad in motor. I rebuilt the motor, left the transmission in it, stabbed the new motor, got it running, and when you put it in gear,(ANY GEAR) no response. My friend crawled under it, when I put it in gear and saw the front yoke spinning. It sat quite awhile during engine rebuild. Fluid level is good. Thanks for your reply to this. I'm a newbie at rebuilds, this is my first one.

The only way I'm sure of transfer case being in gear is by the shifter position and the fact that front yoke is turning while in gear. Thanks again for replying.

440roadrunner · 01-07-2008, 10:02 PM

If that is an unmodified full time 4x4, I don't see how in HELL you ever drove it with the front shaft out. Here's why

All american pu's that used New Process built transfer cases essentially had inside them, a positrak differential, between the front and rear shafts. This means, that just like posi in a rear end, the clutches will --to an extent--allow the "slipping" wheel to clutch together to the other tractive wheel, and drive the truck.

The same thing is true of the transfer case. If you slip the rear, the clutches tend to "lock up" and continue driving the front. This is not a problem with older, manual cases, because when you are in 4x4, the front/rear shafts are locked together. This is precisely why you cannot run a "part time" rig in 4x4 on pavement--there is no slippage between the front/rear shafts.

Here's what I think happened:

The clutches somehow got tightly locked, allowing you to drive the rig with no front shaft. This would not be considered a normal situation, and would be very hard on the differential clutches. They may have, in fact, failed.

Someone (unknown to you) has done the "conversion" in the transfer case to "part time" 4x4. If this is the situation, and nothing is broken, you should be able to get it in gear with the transfer case shifter

Again--the first thing to do is try installing the front shaft. You could also take the truck out into some dirt or other "poor traction" and spin the wheels a little to see what's driving and what's not.

One thing that is a REAL trouble area, by the way, is the really stupid front wheel bearings on these trucks. There is no provision for adjustment, and worse, if you need to change the front seals, you can't get the bearings off the assembly without ruining them. At least Ford and GM used "conventional" hubs on their full time units.

440roadrunner · 01-07-2008, 10:21 PM

I may be incorrect about part of the above

According to this website

http://www.offroaders.com/tech/Diagrams/np203.htm

Your shifter should have a "hi lock" and "low lock" position, which would lock the front/rear shafts together and allow you to drive the pu with no shaft. I'd say take another look at your shifter.

77powerwagon · 01-08-2008, 07:45 AM

I'll be tinkering on it tonight, thanks for the input. I might just take it and have the whole trans/tranfer case rebuilt. Was just hoping it's something "dumb" I'm over looking, seeing how I have never done any of this before...I'll post again after this evening.

Commando · 01-08-2008, 10:20 AM

I may have missed something as I didn't read the entire posts, but is the flywheel engaging the transmission, I was cautioned that I may need to play a little to make sure there is some connection in my project. Just a word of advice that was passed onto me.

440roadrunner · 01-08-2008, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commando

but is the flywheel engaging the transmission

I guess you're referring to the torque converter? You cannot bolt the engine to the transmission, unless the torque converter is properly engaged. Also if this was the case, the front drive yoke would not be turning.

Commando · 01-08-2008, 04:44 PM

Yes, thats what I meant, I was told that sometimes the torque converter can be pushed in far enough that it would not engage. Maybe its just the 727.

77powerwagon · 01-11-2008, 06:52 AM

Just a quick update, it is looking more and more like I might have towed the truck without making sure the transfer case was in neutral. I'm not sure the extent of the damage, but would make sense as to why it's not responding. Hindsight is 20/20. Please take it easy with the "you dumby" comments. This is my first rodeo....

440roadrunner · 01-11-2008, 08:15 AM

Look, guessing like this is not helping you. You need to be specific if you want some good advice.

Did you install the front shaft? If so, what happened?

Did you check out the shifter and linkage carefully?

One thing I'm thinking, is that if you left the transmission/ transfer in the truck with the engine out, the weight of the two might have bent, damaged or otherwise changed the transfer shifter situation.

What happened when you tried to "lock" the transfer with the shifter?

01-07-2008, 06:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
77powerwagon Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 4	1977 Power Wagon Hello all, I am new to forums and this is first time to post. I have a 1977 Power Wagon, 318, balanced, edlebrock intake, comp cam, holley 4-barrel, bored to .30 over, all MSD ignition, headers and glass packs. The transmission was working good before the motor work but now that rebuilt motor is in, the transmission isn't responding in any gear. It has NP 203 transfer case, which I usually kept the front drive shaft removed, while on pavement. When I put it into gear, the front yoke on transfer case is spinning, but nothing to the rear. Any suggestions?

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01-07-2008, 08:03 PM	#2 (permalink)
440roadrunner Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 272	It's been a long time......... I can't tell from your pictures, is/was this a "full time" 4x4? If so, how did you manage to ever drive it with the front shaft removed? Has there been some "part time 4x4" conversion done? How do you know the transfer case is in gear? Did you have the transfer and automatic split apart? Did you leave something out, like the coupling? My suggestion is to reinstall the front shaft, and see what happens. Then, to find out if both axles are engaged, jack up one front and one rear, assuming you have no posi unit, or better yet, put all 4's up on jackstands, and see what you get. Is it possible that you "forgot" you can't drive these with no front shaft? So therefore we need more info: Is it full time 4x4? Did you modify the transfer case? Are you sure the transfer case is in gear?

01-07-2008, 08:32 PM	#3 (permalink)
77powerwagon Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 4	This is a full time 4x4, I haven't done anything to this truck except for engine rebuild. Before the rebuild, I took the front drive shaft out, using only 2 wheel drive. Mainly for gas millage, it ran fine till rod went bad in motor. I rebuilt the motor, left the transmission in it, stabbed the new motor, got it running, and when you put it in gear,(ANY GEAR) no response. My friend crawled under it, when I put it in gear and saw the front yoke spinning. It sat quite awhile during engine rebuild. Fluid level is good. Thanks for your reply to this. I'm a newbie at rebuilds, this is my first one. The only way I'm sure of transfer case being in gear is by the shifter position and the fact that front yoke is turning while in gear. Thanks again for replying.

01-07-2008, 10:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
440roadrunner Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 272	If that is an unmodified full time 4x4, I don't see how in HELL you ever drove it with the front shaft out. Here's why All american pu's that used New Process built transfer cases essentially had inside them, a positrak differential, between the front and rear shafts. This means, that just like posi in a rear end, the clutches will --to an extent--allow the "slipping" wheel to clutch together to the other tractive wheel, and drive the truck. The same thing is true of the transfer case. If you slip the rear, the clutches tend to "lock up" and continue driving the front. This is not a problem with older, manual cases, because when you are in 4x4, the front/rear shafts are locked together. This is precisely why you cannot run a "part time" rig in 4x4 on pavement--there is no slippage between the front/rear shafts. Here's what I think happened: The clutches somehow got tightly locked, allowing you to drive the rig with no front shaft. This would not be considered a normal situation, and would be very hard on the differential clutches. They may have, in fact, failed. Someone (unknown to you) has done the "conversion" in the transfer case to "part time" 4x4. If this is the situation, and nothing is broken, you should be able to get it in gear with the transfer case shifter Again--the first thing to do is try installing the front shaft. You could also take the truck out into some dirt or other "poor traction" and spin the wheels a little to see what's driving and what's not. One thing that is a REAL trouble area, by the way, is the really stupid front wheel bearings on these trucks. There is no provision for adjustment, and worse, if you need to change the front seals, you can't get the bearings off the assembly without ruining them. At least Ford and GM used "conventional" hubs on their full time units.

01-07-2008, 10:21 PM	#5 (permalink)
440roadrunner Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 272	I may be incorrect about part of the above According to this website http://www.offroaders.com/tech/Diagrams/np203.htm Your shifter should have a "hi lock" and "low lock" position, which would lock the front/rear shafts together and allow you to drive the pu with no shaft. I'd say take another look at your shifter.

01-08-2008, 07:45 AM	#6 (permalink)
77powerwagon Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 4	I'll be tinkering on it tonight, thanks for the input. I might just take it and have the whole trans/tranfer case rebuilt. Was just hoping it's something "dumb" I'm over looking, seeing how I have never done any of this before...I'll post again after this evening.

01-08-2008, 10:20 AM	#7 (permalink)
Commando Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 153	I may have missed something as I didn't read the entire posts, but is the flywheel engaging the transmission, I was cautioned that I may need to play a little to make sure there is some connection in my project. Just a word of advice that was passed onto me.

01-08-2008, 04:44 PM	#9 (permalink)
Commando Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: New Jersey Posts: 153	Yes, thats what I meant, I was told that sometimes the torque converter can be pushed in far enough that it would not engage. Maybe its just the 727.

01-11-2008, 06:52 AM	#10 (permalink)
77powerwagon Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 4	Just a quick update, it is looking more and more like I might have towed the truck without making sure the transfer case was in neutral. I'm not sure the extent of the damage, but would make sense as to why it's not responding. Hindsight is 20/20. Please take it easy with the "you dumby" comments. This is my first rodeo....

01-11-2008, 08:15 AM	#11 (permalink)
440roadrunner Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 272	Look, guessing like this is not helping you. You need to be specific if you want some good advice. Did you install the front shaft? If so, what happened? Did you check out the shifter and linkage carefully? One thing I'm thinking, is that if you left the transmission/ transfer in the truck with the engine out, the weight of the two might have bent, damaged or otherwise changed the transfer shifter situation. What happened when you tried to "lock" the transfer with the shifter?