64Imperial

My names Bret I am 28 years old I am a proud owner of a all original 1964 Imperial Crown Coupe. it has the 413 in it it needs the engine rebuilt, & seeing lack of pistons available to this engine and needed to be custom made its cheaper to find a 440.

I have found a guy selling 2 440 blocks, 2 cranks ( one been machined & bearings set on it) and 2 sets of heads all for $300. One block is 1970 stock bore the other is a 1969 bored .30 over cleaned and ready to assemble. he also offered to sell me a set of 8 Pistons for $100 they appear to be flat top from the picture he sent me. he said they are new been in the box like 30 years. they are TRW powerforged pistons, number on the box is 8-L2266F and says they are .30 over. By looking at the picture he sent me they look like they are Flat top pistons. or does someone need to go and notch them for where the valves land? and with these being so old would it effect me at all trying to get rings for them?? ( tbh by looking at them they look newer than 30 years but what do i know? ) & do these pistons look beat up to you guys or do the scratches on them matter at all?

Im looking at buying after market edlebrock aluminum heads cause my heads will need rebuilt and i was quoted $800 for that when i can buy aluminum heads for like $900 better to go with higher flowing aluminum ones. my question is if these are flat top pistons what cc chamber size heads i need to get 9.5:1 to 10:1 compression ratio? i will be running pump gas. I am also planning on putting a thumpr cam in it this is not a race car it needs to look good and sound good its being used in car shows and for fun cruise car on weekends and what not. I was looking at putting this cam in it.
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...csid=1497&sb=2
Will this work with a early A-727 push button transmission stall converter. Ive not been able to find the stock stall speed for these and they dont make stall converters for them, you have to change parts out to be able to. i found one guy that said the stall on these was 2000-2200 stock i dont know if that's right maybe you guys know.

I read somewhere with flat top pistons you need like 78 cc heads to get 9.33:1 compression maybe these Trickflow heads would work?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tf.../make/chrysler

I added pictures ( I think ) of the pistons and its box he sent me. This is my first post so I don't know how all this works yet.

This is my first ever engine build im doing alone. my dad passed away a year ago this Valentines Day, everything I know i've learned from him rebuilding my mustang engine i used to have. I hope this is posted in the right spot i couldnt find a forum for 440 engine builds or anything like that.
Pretty much i need to find out if what this guy is selling is usable to me, hopefully ill find out before he sell it. $300 seems cheap for what all id get. Idk what the heads are but they might be sellable as well as one of the blocks / cranks cause i only need one block and crank.

Thank you for your time,

Bret

RacerHog

Good Old Speed-Pro Pistons....Those are 440 8.5.1 - 9.5.1 CR pistons...... Here is the info on them for your build if you go this route....

http://www.fme-cat.com/overlays/part...ton&brandId=SD


413 Pistons are out there also....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sl...ibanner=SREPD2

64Imperial

Thanks for this information, I dont know how i missed there being pistons for the 413 on summit.... i been all over that website. as fro the heads and everything i was looking at. i read it wrong i thought the price was for the pair of heads with that being EACH i guess it will be cheaper and better to just stick with my stock heads and get them redone they quoted me ~800 to rebuild them both with new valves, hardened seats and everything. Would the stock heads work with that Thumpr cam i listed & what are your thoughts on that cam with the stock heads, performer rpm intake & carb ( i have no clue what size carb for this ) with my 2000-2200 stock stall & stock gears idk what ratios they are. will this still run good? again its not a race car its there to sound good and cruise to car shows and things. I just dont want stalling and dying problems and the cam being 2500+ stall and only being 3-500 rpm lower than recremended i wouldn't think i would have any problems?

one more thing them pistons you listed for the 413 is that liek stock replacment? so if i used them with my stock heads after they are rebuilt id have the same compression ratios as factory 10:1? i think the stock heads are like 74.5 cc size not positive though. & what happens if you run a higher compression ratio than the cam asks for example i run 10:1 and it calls for 9:1?

Again i have no idea on a carburetor from what i've heard over the years edlebrocks arn't that great everyone saying go Holley that they are more easy to work on, which would be nice seeing i'm still learning carburetors. but would a holly match up to a performer rpm intake manifold okay?

That link appears to not work. here are the cam stats:

Comp Cam's *****' Thumpr™ : High performance street/strip, needs 9:1 compression, 2500+ stall, intake, gears and headers, rough idle.
Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft Grind Number = 287TH7
RPM Range = 2200-6100
Valve lift= .497/ .483
Lobe Lift = .3310/ .3220
Duration = 287/304
Duration @.50 = 235/249
Lobe Separation 107 degrees
Valve Timing = .006

one more thought i can buy both his 440 blocks a 1970 and a 1969 thats already machined cleaned and bored .30 over with 2 cranks one thats been machined already, and 2 sets of heads with his .30 flat top pistons all for $400 that is about the same id pay for pistons for the 413 anyways after tax. would it be better to do this and just upgrade to a 440 for pretty much the same price? can my internals from my 413 fit the pistons and install into the 440? my understanding everything is cross compatible except for pistons on their own? and all said and done down the road i could sell the 413 and the extra 440 its heads and crank and just put my 413 heads after rebuilt onto the 440 and still have 10:1 compression ( i believe ) that website you gave me listed them .30 over flat top pistons with 78cc heads at 9.33:1 compression and i think my stock heads are 74.5 that should put it at or around 10:1 right?

Ill stop here sorry for all the questions im new to this and i like to do as much research as possible & I even bought a manual (Big-Block Mopar Engines (How to Rebuild)by Don Taylor ) so ill know i'm doing everything right. and i need to get my info cause that guy wont have them 440 blocks for ever it seems like a really good price to me. I apologize for the 50,000 questions, i'm only 28 and never done any of this on my own or taken any mechanics classes.

RacerHog

All kind of depends on your Budget... I see where you want to go... Let me replay to this a little later when I have a little more time to address some of your other question....


I like 413's and 440's... But me... I like cubic inches... Just food for thought.

64Imperial

I too like cubic inches, & im getting around $2800 from taxes and im selling a harley for $6,000, ill be using this money on the engine, new full exhaust ect. I just found an awesome kit id love to put in it but i think it wont work i know the cam in the kit wont work its too large of stall .

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ed.../make/chrysler

maybe that link will work its performer RPM, heads, intake, cam kit with timing chain and all new bolts as well as a free carburetor of choice.

I was thinking i could probably get this and just change the cam out for the one i wanted. the kit over all saves a ton of money if you add all the parts up anyways.

but i dont know how the performer RPM stuff will work on street and lower end cause my lower end wont be all that great anyways cause the cam im wanting to run with stock 2000-2200 stall converter. and stock gearing. any thoughts? This performer RPM kit claims to give 482 HP and 528 lbs Torque dino proven ( using their cam that is )

i wish they had the E-street heads and the performer 440 intake in a package, cause its good for idle - 5500 and the performer RPM is for 1500-6500 RPM ill never see 6500 rpm prob wont ever see 6k

Thank you for all your time i really mean it.

RacerHog

All these are good choices.... Budget is going to be the factor... My suggestion is to use a cam profile from idle or 1500 rpm and no larger. I also like the Holley 750-850CFM carb with electric choke for this type of combo. I also would try to keep the compression somewhere around 10,0,1 - 10.8.1 and not much more over that. the Thumper or the VooDoo cams are great cams. Keep the Duration of the cam around 280*. this should be nice and streetable with no problems using pump gas.
Remember... What ever heads you get are going to need to be checked out and and new push rods are going to be needed. And the bigger you go the more complexed your going to make the project.....
You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders... You can do some number checking over on the Wallace performance calculator just for kicks.
The 440's sound like a good deal only if there usable !!!!!!
Hope this answers a few of your question....
Keep us post...we are hear to help....

64Imperial

The main reason i was wanting the higher duration cam is for the lopy idle sound. I love that sound. i know by having a cam that sounds like that will lose power in the lower RPMs but like i said its not a race car its a 19 foot long boat i want to sound good / look good for car shows and cruising around, i would like it to have some get up and go too though. Would that performer RPM package work with what I am wanting minus the cam it comes with obviously seeing it wants a 3000+ stall for it? its $2500 but seems worth the money. Or should i just buy the items seperate and get the E-street heads , 440 performer intake and that carb? and electric choke how hard is it to wire the wiring needed for an electric choke? pretty sure mines not electric now its a old AFB carter pos carb i rebuilt it and still cant get it to run right. it wont start now i think the gas lines are plugged so i need to drop the tank and give it the dance to break up all the rust in it lol you said the compression 10:1 - 10.8:1? my understanding 10:1 was like the highest you could go on pump gas? or does that change with more cubic inches? As for the heads, im just looking to buy the cheapest of whats available really thats workable with my build. they all out perform the stock heads anyhow im not building a super engine even with the smallest heads i wont be pushing their full potential. someone told me aluminum heads are bad fro street use cause of over heating? that really a problem?

Iowan

Try to keep the duration @ .050 around 225, this will give you a nice idle that motor will come off very nice and work with stock heads.

RacerHog

To answer the question.... Yes you can use that set up and the other cam... Your just giving up some of the low end....

64Imperial

it seems the guy sold the 440 blocks and everything before i got my money up, & im seeing 440 blocks are running about $500 bucks each. my current 413 is smoking really bad im pretty sure its just rings but when it ran it ran rough and shook the car at idle, but if you gave it some gas after 2-3 seconds and about 2000 rpm it ran smooth but smoked. im thinking maybe the cylinders might not be in any bad shape i dont know i have not started taking the car apart yet. i was waiting on my " How to rebuild big-block mopar engines book by Don taylor " to come in the mail i got it today. i may start taking stuff apart tomorrow after work. this book tells you how to remove the engines, disassemble and put back together step by step for a normal person that knows nothing.

That being said ive been doing more research I found a cam thats made for low compression says it wants 9:1 CR im not sure what would happen it i ran 10:1 CR on the cam.
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/p...z&partid=30173

above is the cam link its the hughes whiplash cam however it says its for the 440 would this work in a 413? if so what exactly would change cause of the CI?

I got a new quote to rebuild my stock 413 heads new valves, hardened seats and everything they said about $430 for both of them and said for $300 more they will Port them to the max to match the gaskets. ( the other machine shop quoted me $800 for the same thing with no porting )

so stock heads+ that cam id be like 10:1 compression if i used stock pistons ( if its only my rings that are bad )

also anyone run this cam at all? ive heard goods and bads about it so im still not sure

RacerHog

your 413 is still a R/B block..... What you need to know is after the machine work is finished and the block and heads and crankshaft have all been deemed in good order. then you can set the compression ratio any where from 8.0.1 - 14.0.1 at that point once you fit the heads, pistons and block decking. you can measure how much of a lift cam the engine will handle at that point.
If the assambly will onlt take a .500 lift cam... Then you have bought a cam that will not fit. at that point you need to spend more money to have valve pockets cut into the pistons. and that if there is enough meat in the piston to cut.
So.... I feel you need to get the engine out and see if it even cleans up for you to have something to work with..

413 Run good... Just a little smaller Bore...
Head rebuild sounds good. as long as the shop is a good shop.
But...like I said before.... 10.0.1 or 10.5.1 or 10.8.1 will run like a trooper.
and if it all work out that you can run a .552 lift cam... and all the related parts at the bottom of the list that needs to be installed... Make a note of it... The shop needs to install it when doing the head overhaul. so just rest assured that all will fit with the machine shop when its all said and done...
Dont get a bunch of parts that you cant use or get stuck with....

64Imperial

yeah I am calling them tomorrow to see what they are pricing to do all the work to put it together also. it makes sense with the cam i thought how it works is i find the cam i want to run and that will tell what springs they need to rebuild my heads with and what pistons i need to run that cam and to get my CR in the right ratio. or i doing something backwards? I thought it was the springs that determine the lift you can take in an engine

another note that came somehow creates additional chamber pressure making you use less CR.

Cam info stats:
Our Whiplash cam is designed for low, basically stock compression engines. This cam will run on pump gas in a 440 with 9.25:1 or less compression and iron heads. If your compression is higher than this you may need to use a higher octane race fuel. Your vacuum should be in the 9"-11" range using this cam.
(Figures calculated using stock stroke & compression at 750' altitude.)

No machine work, leave the heads on, raises cylinder pressure. Ground on true .904" cam lobes. This gives you max area under the curve. Has low lift to clear guides.


This cam specifically says 440 says nothing of a 413 and being smaller pistons with the 413 that effect CR at all? The other Whiplash cam says 383/400 ( still nothing about the 413 )
This cam is supposed to be really good with stock heads in-fact its made for them and stock CR but they list needing 9.25:1 CR or less that makes no sense seeing stock was 10:1, saying if you go above 9.25:1 you need higher octane or race fuel . There ad appears to contradict its self saying you need stock CR to run pump gas ( when stock was 10:1 ) and then saying anything more than 9.25:1 wont work with pump gas.

maybe you know something i don't which i'm sure you do. Maybe im not seeing something liek some underlying rule only experienced people know about maybe my 3500 foot elevation? sorry for the major concern about the CR i just dont want to drive and lean out for being too low and burn something up and i dont want to have too much CR where i blow something up. you keep saying 10:1, 10.5:, even high as 10.8:1. Does this cams 9.25:1 CR guide line not really matter all that much? and i could just got 10:1 like I originally planned and not have to even worry about it ignoring the cams recommendations? and being a 413 instead of the listed 440 i would have less cubic inches that might effect the CR also.

RacerHog

Give Hughes a call and run it by them for their recommendation... Make sure there is no interference problems....