olibass1

I had a post on here a while back about timing being off (shows 42 degrees advanced at initial, but starts and runs good except for a sluggish throttle response) and had a reply that talked about the oil pump drive gear being off a tooth, and how to walk it out and move it until it was correct. My question is, will this affect how the car runs, or will it just get my timing numbers to read more
accurate. I'm just looking for what kind of results I should expect.
Thanks for your time,
Mike

RacerHog

No...Thats not going to fix the problem.........
If you got 42* and its a slug!!!! You got another problem..

TVLynn

You could try just moving the plug wires one spot. To move the gear a big flat blade screwdriver works, or a length of coat hanger with a hook bent on the end. THIS could also be another one with miss marked timing dots ????

440roadrunner

Assuming the plug wire firing order "in order" is correct, and assuming that you can time the engine so that it runs, the position of the distributor gear or the distributor means NOTHING

My first car was a '57 chev. Hell for a couple of years I didn't know there WAS a "right" or "wrong" place for no1. I drove into a service station one day, back when you got SERVICE, and the guy says "how can that run, you have the no1 wire in the wrong spolt?' Guess what? It ran just fine.

As someone over at FABO says, "the drive gear can point to China"

There ARE engines which MATTER. The odd/ even fire GM V6's are an example. Some of those have cylinders that are "paired" closer together, with a big space between the next pair. On these you can NOT move a wire "one tower" you must move it 2.

So far as our Mopar 6's or V8's, here's why there is an "official" no1 spot:

So the plug wires "lay nice" at the factory

so the assembly line people can "wrench, repeat."

so the tune up guys see what they expect

The fact is, you can just toss the gear in with your eyes closed. Toss the distributor in with your eyes closed.

Bring the no1 cylinder up on compression ready to fire, and plug the no1 wire WHEREVER the rotor points, and it will run fine.

================================================

Now, you may have wrong TIMING MARKS. There are different balancer / tiing cover combinations some years, and different setups off some heavy trucks/ motor homes. AND balancers can slip the outer ring

SO CHECK the timing mark with a piston stop:
https://www.google.com/search?newwin...55.wS7O17YRjR8

Remove the no1 plug and make sure the piston is down. Remove the battery ground and install the stop. First time you use it you may need to play with length. You are NOT trying to stop the piston at TDC, but rather "down" a ways.

Rotate the engine until the piston hits the device. make a temporary mark onto the balancer directly under TDC on the timing pointer/ tab.

Rotate the engine CCW and do the same as above. You will have two temporary marks, and true TDC will be halfway in between. If the original mark is accurate, that is where it will be.

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Timing: If you are using a delay timing light, try an old "regular" light, ESPECIALLY if you have MSD ignition.

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Once you get the balancer accurate, I like to measure off and scribe the wheel out to about 60* so that I can check mechanical / vaccuum advance without a special light. BE SURE to check initial timing with vacuum UNhooked.

pro-tech

What engine are you working on?? If its a SB and you are running Mopar performance timing gear set then you NEED to check the timing marks on the crank gear. I just went through the same thing and found they had the marks stamped in the wrong place on the gear causing it to run retarded and it was a real slug and was running hot on the road. I took another set and marked it accordingly...Bill

olibass1

Thanks for all of the input guys. I have pretty much been through all of the suggestions (move the wires one spot over, find top dead center with piston stop, etc). Not sure if it has a Mopar performance timing set in it or not. Doesn't that dot have to do with cam timing, and not ignition timing? How much would one relate to the other? I was told they were to different things? Just for the record, this is a small block 360 with msd ignition and msd billet distributor.....no vac adv. The car runs good, but doesn't idle that great, especially when cold......just seems to be a dog off of the line no matter what I do (eddy 650 carb and 323 rear end in case you are wondering).

TVLynn

Could you have the wrong timing cover ???

olibass1

That's possible, but I pretty much took that out of the equation when I found top dead center and put my own mark on the balancer (which was with in a degree or 2 of the original mark) I then added timing tape, and the mark has not moved since I did it, so I'm ruling out the balancer moving also.

Coronet 500

Are you timing with vacum advance disconnected and plugged?

pro-tech

Yeah ok you said it doesnt have vacuum advance right? Your car is doing the same thing mine was doing and the cam timing was off by the mismarked timing set.. even though the ignition timing was dead on at base of 16* and 34* total advance it ran like a bag of sh-t and now it is almost to much for the car (if there can be to much) It spins so easy and is fast as hell. Bill

pro-tech

He said it doesnt have vacuum advance

olibass1

That's something that hasn't been checked yet. I'm not comfortable tearing into it that far myself. I have a buddy in my Mopar club that would do it for me though, but I'd like to exhaust all other options before getting it torn down that far. I will definitely keep it on the list, and check it out if I can't get things right soon.

RacerHog

Have it Hauled down here to "RacerHog" I'll square it away for ya....
My shop Matoe is (Don't Cause Call Us)

olibass1

Thanks for the offer Racer hog, but that's a bit of a haul.....I'm on the other side of the country! (Michigan).

RacerHog

Come on You love your car don't you ???????
OK...So lets move on.... Have you taken a vacuum reading?
Do you know what cam is in the engine?

1-Question out side the box..... Is this a new or old engine?

440roadrunner

The cam timing could very well be off enough to REALLY affect performance even though the timing gears are "dot to dot."

There are a couple of factors......................

The cam you have may not be the optimum design for your build in the first place

The cam and or the drive index, even though "dot to dot" may NOT be at either manufacturer's recommendation OR optimum for your build

I just got through helping a guy with an old "purple cam"

If I recall the figures....................

The cam was originally designed for an intake centerline of 108

"The guys" say it should be closer to 104--106 to run good, and especially since this was in a pickup.

So I stuck the wheel on the thing and checked it with the old cam drive 110 !!! No wonder the damn thing was a low end dog.

He had a new timing set with keyways, so we moved it 6* and between the old drive and the new, and moving the new 6* the first time around it came out to 105, which is where we decided to leave it

He says this thing is GREAT. I didn't stay to get it running.

olibass1

I didn't put the cam in, but the guy I bought it from said it was a comp cam....470 lift. Not sure of the duration. the vacuum reads 15 at idle after warm up. I have a guy that works on mopar drag cars that would tear into it for me, but trying to exhaust all other "easier" possibilities before I go that far.

olibass1

Racerhog......'73 360.....rebuilt just before I bought it. Probably 2500 miles on rebuild as of now.

olibass1

Thread with very similar issues as mine....


http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/archive/index.php/t-26076.html

olibass1

UPDATE!!! I finally had the Belvy tore into and had the cam degreed and it was 2 teeth off (retarded)! .....about 14 degrees! Bought a nice billet roller timing set from Cloyes with the 7 different keyset positions and had that installed and had the timing set clocked at 4 degrees advanced (comp cam grind #270 p# 20-214-4....had that verified while he was in there also). She runs waaaaay better.......idles smoother, smokes the tires, responsive right out of the hole! Thanks to the guys that steered me in this direction......it's like driving a new car! Can't keep my foot out of it though . I know some people say that cam timing and ignition timing are 2 different animals, even the guy I had work on it, (who's a retired mechanic and tunes drag cars!) said he learned something from this situation.......but if the cam timing is off enough, the ignition timing needs to be set to compensate for the unusual set up....my car is proof of this! Hope this helps all the other guys that I've seen post a similar problem, and thanks to all for all of your help!

olibass1

......went from 42 initial and 60 total, to 20 initial, and 38 total!....much better!!!!

RacerHog

Great to hear....... Now go kick some brand-X azz.....

olibass1

Can't wait!!