440 sputtering at WOT
11-16-2011, 06:14 AM
#31
I was glad to hear you were not charged for repeat work.
I was told to put it in neutral and keep it at 2k rpms at all times...around turns, while braking...basically two pedal driving.
Well if this is what needs to be done, I would've asked how much to tame it down. Driving this why is hard on parts mainly brake parts. very dangerous. I would say if you did it long enough and got used to it , it could have a deadly out come. When the high idle combined with broke brake parts, could kill . I see what he was getting at, but this is just wrong. You realy need a car that can idle normally on the street. Especially if it's daily driven.
Good luck and be safe.
I was told to put it in neutral and keep it at 2k rpms at all times...around turns, while braking...basically two pedal driving.
Well if this is what needs to be done, I would've asked how much to tame it down. Driving this why is hard on parts mainly brake parts. very dangerous. I would say if you did it long enough and got used to it , it could have a deadly out come. When the high idle combined with broke brake parts, could kill . I see what he was getting at, but this is just wrong. You realy need a car that can idle normally on the street. Especially if it's daily driven.
Good luck and be safe.
11-16-2011, 07:59 AM
#32
I was glad to hear you were not charged for repeat work.
I was told to put it in neutral and keep it at 2k rpms at all times...around turns, while braking...basically two pedal driving.
Well if this is what needs to be done, I would've asked how much to tame it down. Driving this why is hard on parts mainly brake parts. very dangerous. I would say if you did it long enough and got used to it , it could have a deadly out come. When the high idle combined with broke brake parts, could kill . I see what he was getting at, but this is just wrong. You realy need a car that can idle normally on the street. Especially if it's daily driven.
Good luck and be safe.
I was told to put it in neutral and keep it at 2k rpms at all times...around turns, while braking...basically two pedal driving.
Well if this is what needs to be done, I would've asked how much to tame it down. Driving this why is hard on parts mainly brake parts. very dangerous. I would say if you did it long enough and got used to it , it could have a deadly out come. When the high idle combined with broke brake parts, could kill . I see what he was getting at, but this is just wrong. You realy need a car that can idle normally on the street. Especially if it's daily driven.
Good luck and be safe.
11-16-2011, 09:12 AM
#33
Mopar Lover
69 -
A lot of times the 3x2 and older 2x4 carbs didn't work as well as one 4. (Late 60's early 70's 440's cam with 600 CFM Holley's or 800 CFM Q-Jets or TQs and the latter two had very small primaries.)
The one thing you're not mentioning is the cam. That kinda dictates hole much A/F is going to get in at what RPM. (CID tells you how much A/F you CAN get in, but the cam's lift/duration/overlap tells you where it's going to be efficient.)
You stroked that thing to almost 90 CI over and that means there should be a fairly healthy cam in there.
If you want to make it more drivable, you're going to have to do some kind of rebuild. Start with a cam that will make power in the lower RPM band, match an intake manifold and work with that. Not sure how far down you can go with that kind of displacement and head work.
The other option would be a higher rear end ratio, that would help keep the RPM up, but make might make the car less drive-able for anything other that local street work (ie - forget the high way).
When you had the motor built, didn't any one mention you were ending up with a race car? Sorry, that's not meant to be sarcastic, but the first thing you have to think about when building an engine is what you want to do with it.
Last option would be to either A. just race the car or B. sell the engine to someone who wants to race it and get a more streetable engine.
Archer
A lot of times the 3x2 and older 2x4 carbs didn't work as well as one 4. (Late 60's early 70's 440's cam with 600 CFM Holley's or 800 CFM Q-Jets or TQs and the latter two had very small primaries.)
The one thing you're not mentioning is the cam. That kinda dictates hole much A/F is going to get in at what RPM. (CID tells you how much A/F you CAN get in, but the cam's lift/duration/overlap tells you where it's going to be efficient.)
You stroked that thing to almost 90 CI over and that means there should be a fairly healthy cam in there.
If you want to make it more drivable, you're going to have to do some kind of rebuild. Start with a cam that will make power in the lower RPM band, match an intake manifold and work with that. Not sure how far down you can go with that kind of displacement and head work.
The other option would be a higher rear end ratio, that would help keep the RPM up, but make might make the car less drive-able for anything other that local street work (ie - forget the high way).
When you had the motor built, didn't any one mention you were ending up with a race car? Sorry, that's not meant to be sarcastic, but the first thing you have to think about when building an engine is what you want to do with it.
Last option would be to either A. just race the car or B. sell the engine to someone who wants to race it and get a more streetable engine.
Archer
11-16-2011, 02:07 PM
#34
69 -
A lot of times the 3x2 and older 2x4 carbs didn't work as well as one 4. (Late 60's early 70's 440's cam with 600 CFM Holley's or 800 CFM Q-Jets or TQs and the latter two had very small primaries.)
The one thing you're not mentioning is the cam. That kinda dictates hole much A/F is going to get in at what RPM. (CID tells you how much A/F you CAN get in, but the cam's lift/duration/overlap tells you where it's going to be efficient.)
You stroked that thing to almost 90 CI over and that means there should be a fairly healthy cam in there.
If you want to make it more drivable, you're going to have to do some kind of rebuild. Start with a cam that will make power in the lower RPM band, match an intake manifold and work with that. Not sure how far down you can go with that kind of displacement and head work.
The other option would be a higher rear end ratio, that would help keep the RPM up, but make might make the car less drive-able for anything other that local street work (ie - forget the high way).
When you had the motor built, didn't any one mention you were ending up with a race car? Sorry, that's not meant to be sarcastic, but the first thing you have to think about when building an engine is what you want to do with it.
Last option would be to either A. just race the car or B. sell the engine to someone who wants to race it and get a more streetable engine.
Archer
A lot of times the 3x2 and older 2x4 carbs didn't work as well as one 4. (Late 60's early 70's 440's cam with 600 CFM Holley's or 800 CFM Q-Jets or TQs and the latter two had very small primaries.)
The one thing you're not mentioning is the cam. That kinda dictates hole much A/F is going to get in at what RPM. (CID tells you how much A/F you CAN get in, but the cam's lift/duration/overlap tells you where it's going to be efficient.)
You stroked that thing to almost 90 CI over and that means there should be a fairly healthy cam in there.
If you want to make it more drivable, you're going to have to do some kind of rebuild. Start with a cam that will make power in the lower RPM band, match an intake manifold and work with that. Not sure how far down you can go with that kind of displacement and head work.
The other option would be a higher rear end ratio, that would help keep the RPM up, but make might make the car less drive-able for anything other that local street work (ie - forget the high way).
When you had the motor built, didn't any one mention you were ending up with a race car? Sorry, that's not meant to be sarcastic, but the first thing you have to think about when building an engine is what you want to do with it.
Last option would be to either A. just race the car or B. sell the engine to someone who wants to race it and get a more streetable engine.
Archer
11-16-2011, 03:00 PM
#36
My question is how did the original 440 come with a 800
this should be fine. smaller motors came with em stock.
What exactly is the intended use. I am guessing daily driver since you said you may be with out a car again.
Maybe put in a running "used" motor in, if you need to drive it and work on getting the right combo. At least you could drive it. Have faith. You will get through this and looking back will have learned alot and hopefully have some fun in the learning process. I know first hand how frustrating it can be. When I was 15 and got my first car I had trouble with several mechanics and decided if they can make money doing it wrong I can do it myself and save money. First thing I did was go to a library and get a book. Not all mechanics are bad but sometimes it seems hard to find one you can realy trust. Like I said we could start a thread about Horror stories and lessons learned. Case in piont, my son had a leak in his gas tank. Had a new one put in. It leaked like a seive. He went back and they told him "don't fill it all the way up".I went back and spoke to the owner,
some one I knew. He said it is so hard to get good help. Not sure why that should be my problem. Any way, some one got fired. All he had to do was replace the gasket for the sender unit. Duh!
So in closing take it in stride and keep at it.
this should be fine. smaller motors came with em stock.
What exactly is the intended use. I am guessing daily driver since you said you may be with out a car again.
Maybe put in a running "used" motor in, if you need to drive it and work on getting the right combo. At least you could drive it. Have faith. You will get through this and looking back will have learned alot and hopefully have some fun in the learning process. I know first hand how frustrating it can be. When I was 15 and got my first car I had trouble with several mechanics and decided if they can make money doing it wrong I can do it myself and save money. First thing I did was go to a library and get a book. Not all mechanics are bad but sometimes it seems hard to find one you can realy trust. Like I said we could start a thread about Horror stories and lessons learned. Case in piont, my son had a leak in his gas tank. Had a new one put in. It leaked like a seive. He went back and they told him "don't fill it all the way up".I went back and spoke to the owner,
some one I knew. He said it is so hard to get good help. Not sure why that should be my problem. Any way, some one got fired. All he had to do was replace the gasket for the sender unit. Duh!
So in closing take it in stride and keep at it.
11-16-2011, 06:22 PM
#37
Its all new fuel line (rubber tubing), dont know size off hand but I did notice along the passenger side rear wheel well the original line was still in place. I just saw this yesterday and wondered if it was at least partially to blame? I know now it is for all the little particles clogging my filter & carb
11-16-2011, 07:27 PM
#39
Mopar Lover
69 -
OK, so this started with the engine sputtering at WOT and your mechanic is now telling you to run it at a min of 2000 rpm (agree - bad idea)???
Is the engine now having bottom end issues (hence the suggestion for the 2000 rpm minimum) or is it still acting up at WOT. or both - I confuse easily.
That cam is very slightly hotter than the one I'm running, but I'm only .030" over. Frankly, I was expecting a lot more on the cam (missed the initial link). The rest of your set up sounds pretty similar to mine as well (head work, Torker + 850 DP, 3000 stall, 3.23 rear, etc in a 74 Charger.).
I'm idling at 750 with 10" vac in gear. not great on the low end due to the converter spool up, but not shabby either and I don't have to ride the break. I've never ran a stroked engine, so that's the one variable I can't factor in.
As to Coronets suggestion about the fuel line, I'm running 3/8" to a Holley mechanical pump, holding 6 - 7# of pressure at the carb. Guess you'd need at least that.
Archer
OK, so this started with the engine sputtering at WOT and your mechanic is now telling you to run it at a min of 2000 rpm (agree - bad idea)???
Is the engine now having bottom end issues (hence the suggestion for the 2000 rpm minimum) or is it still acting up at WOT. or both - I confuse easily.
That cam is very slightly hotter than the one I'm running, but I'm only .030" over. Frankly, I was expecting a lot more on the cam (missed the initial link). The rest of your set up sounds pretty similar to mine as well (head work, Torker + 850 DP, 3000 stall, 3.23 rear, etc in a 74 Charger.).
I'm idling at 750 with 10" vac in gear. not great on the low end due to the converter spool up, but not shabby either and I don't have to ride the break. I've never ran a stroked engine, so that's the one variable I can't factor in.
As to Coronets suggestion about the fuel line, I'm running 3/8" to a Holley mechanical pump, holding 6 - 7# of pressure at the carb. Guess you'd need at least that.
Archer
Last edited by Archer; 11-16-2011 at 07:31 PM.
11-16-2011, 09:42 PM
#40
This motor should not be lacking any power. A motor can be made to idle and run at any rpm range with the correct combination of parts. To me it sounds like someone is missing something. The fact that it is a stroker is irrelevant. If it wont idle down low enough then something is wrong be it radical of cam profile, over carburetion, cam timing, ignition timing or combination of all of these.
I am not buying under carburetion. Everything being equal a car with too small of a carburetor will run circles around an engine with too large of carburetor. The engine should run good with the 750. It may not be running to its potential, but it will run smooth. The 6 pack carbs worked good back on a stock 440 because the center carb was manually opened and the outer carbs were vacuum operated. That way it is never over carbureted.
Ignition timing should be typically 5 to 10 degrees btdc at idle. Different engine requirements will cause this to vary. I would expect all the timing to be in by 2000 RPM or so. At 2000 RPM I would expect to see 34 degrees btdc. Once again these are not set in stone but are typical on a good street performance motor.
I do not know what your compression ratio is but if it is too high, then you may be compromising with ignition timing to get rid of spark knock. If the timing is too retarded then the engine will have poor low speed performance.
If you compression ratio is too low then you may not have enough compression for your camshaft to work properly. Large Radical camshafts bleed off compression pressure at idle. This also makes for an engine with poor low speed performance.
Did you have the cam degreed when it was installed? This is a mush on any "high performance" build. If it was way out of spec then this could be the problem also.
I am not buying under carburetion. Everything being equal a car with too small of a carburetor will run circles around an engine with too large of carburetor. The engine should run good with the 750. It may not be running to its potential, but it will run smooth. The 6 pack carbs worked good back on a stock 440 because the center carb was manually opened and the outer carbs were vacuum operated. That way it is never over carbureted.
Ignition timing should be typically 5 to 10 degrees btdc at idle. Different engine requirements will cause this to vary. I would expect all the timing to be in by 2000 RPM or so. At 2000 RPM I would expect to see 34 degrees btdc. Once again these are not set in stone but are typical on a good street performance motor.
I do not know what your compression ratio is but if it is too high, then you may be compromising with ignition timing to get rid of spark knock. If the timing is too retarded then the engine will have poor low speed performance.
If you compression ratio is too low then you may not have enough compression for your camshaft to work properly. Large Radical camshafts bleed off compression pressure at idle. This also makes for an engine with poor low speed performance.
Did you have the cam degreed when it was installed? This is a mush on any "high performance" build. If it was way out of spec then this could be the problem also.
11-17-2011, 10:36 AM
#41
69 -
OK, so this started with the engine sputtering at WOT and your mechanic is now telling you to run it at a min of 2000 rpm (agree - bad idea)???
Very bad...
Is the engine now having bottom end issues (hence the suggestion for the 2000 rpm minimum) or is it still acting up at WOT. or both - I confuse easily.
Only issue other than the sputtering is that the driveshaft yoke ripped apart. Sputtering is mainly in low ok in 2500-4000rpm then sputters and shuts down if its goin any higher, especially if its punched.
That cam is very slightly hotter than the one I'm running, but I'm only .030" over. Frankly, I was expecting a lot more on the cam (missed the initial link). The rest of your set up sounds pretty similar to mine as well (head work, Torker + 850 DP, 3000 stall, 3.23 rear, etc in a 74 Charger.).
Nice, I'm .40 over, stall is 3800+ TCI Ultimate Street Fighter. Not sure on the gearing yet, thats my next mission, seems to be a little much right now though
I'm idling at 750 with 10" vac in gear. not great on the low end due to the converter spool up, but not shabby either and I don't have to ride the break. I've never ran a stroked engine, so that's the one variable I can't factor in.
As to Coronets suggestion about the fuel line, I'm running 3/8" to a Holley mechanical pump, holding 6 - 7# of pressure at the carb. Guess you'd need at least that.
Yea, Im going to replace that little piece of line and it should help out, I was only getting 5lbs at my fuel pressure gauge, even when revving stayed steady.
Archer
OK, so this started with the engine sputtering at WOT and your mechanic is now telling you to run it at a min of 2000 rpm (agree - bad idea)???
Very bad...
Is the engine now having bottom end issues (hence the suggestion for the 2000 rpm minimum) or is it still acting up at WOT. or both - I confuse easily.
Only issue other than the sputtering is that the driveshaft yoke ripped apart. Sputtering is mainly in low ok in 2500-4000rpm then sputters and shuts down if its goin any higher, especially if its punched.
That cam is very slightly hotter than the one I'm running, but I'm only .030" over. Frankly, I was expecting a lot more on the cam (missed the initial link). The rest of your set up sounds pretty similar to mine as well (head work, Torker + 850 DP, 3000 stall, 3.23 rear, etc in a 74 Charger.).
Nice, I'm .40 over, stall is 3800+ TCI Ultimate Street Fighter. Not sure on the gearing yet, thats my next mission, seems to be a little much right now though
I'm idling at 750 with 10" vac in gear. not great on the low end due to the converter spool up, but not shabby either and I don't have to ride the break. I've never ran a stroked engine, so that's the one variable I can't factor in.
As to Coronets suggestion about the fuel line, I'm running 3/8" to a Holley mechanical pump, holding 6 - 7# of pressure at the carb. Guess you'd need at least that.
Yea, Im going to replace that little piece of line and it should help out, I was only getting 5lbs at my fuel pressure gauge, even when revving stayed steady.
Archer
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