Hibred

I have been looking into finding more information on the 440 in my Plymouth and can't find all whats inside but have found out that it was rebuilt and done .30 over and was told it has a mild cam and also has closed chamber heads, just wondering if someone can tell me about them, fairly sure it has pretty high compression, guessing at least 11:1 or maybe a little more and have had the problem with knocking once the engine gets lots of heat under the hood and has been driven for anymore then about 20 miles, coolant temp is fine but just a lot of internal heat and with todays crappy gas have to use premium and octane boost to help out so decided to get a Snow water methanol injection kit for it, will post more once i find out how well this works. So if anyone can tell me what exactly closed chamber heads are and what other heads there are out there and are these heads giving me a higher compression also, thanks for any help.

Coronet 500

Good article: http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/t...s/viewall.html

PK1

You have a dual plane intake and exhaust manifolds. I don't see excessive heat in motor design unless your cooling system has been compromised. Sure it could be a high compression build and fuel issue. Maybe. I also see no vacuum to the distributer? Which is fine if it is set up as so, but..... You may want to read the plugs for lean condition and then check your timing numbers.

It looks like a very well thought out install. I can see the coil away from heat. Fuel regulator on the firewall etc...

However, there doesn't appear to be a fan shroud? What kind of fan is there?

TVLynn

Find out what the cranking compression is ? That with cam info would give you a rough idea. Another fix would be to go to the later open chamber heads to drop the compression a tad.
Could be too lean maybe ???

Hibred

Hi, thanks for the help, there is an aluminum rad with 2 electric fans for cooling, it keeps the coolant temp down just under 200 degrees unless its a really hot day or running in town and stop and go, plugs are all fine and have a mechanic buddy that has set the timing back some and has detuned it a little, he figures it is a fiarly high compression at least 11 or 11 1/2:1, there is no vaccum and it is set up this way, it really isn't a cooling issue but more of a heat issue under the hood, maybe i am not saying things quite right but when i first start the car and it warms up it runs great and has no knocking at all but after driving it for 20 or 30 miles it will start to knock quite noticeably if you try and get your foot into the throttle. Since this picture was taken i have added new wiring from front to back and added a MSD system and also upgraded the alternator to i beleive 70 amps, that itself made a big difference, if you can think of anything else let me know, thanks for all your help here, appreciate it.

Chryco Psycho

There are a number of things to help , slower advance curve as timing can be critical adding more initial advance with a shorter curve , high flow water pump , not running it lean , limiting throttle at lower rpm helps . There is a lot of gains in tuning,
Electric fans are not very efficient , a good 18" clutch fan will pull a lot more air , shrouds make a huge difference pulling air from the full surface area .

440roadrunner

So many variables here it's difficult to even start.

Without actually MEASURING the compression ratio, and finding out not only what cam you have, but ALSO how it was installed IE retarded/ advanced from recommended, there's all this:

The engine could be running hot, how have you checked this other than the gauge?

The timing curve could be way too fast, and it simply could be over--advanced. It could be that you don't have the optimum curve in the distributor, either

Is it possible the engine is "carboned up" from too much low speed idling around, running way too rich?

Valve guides which allow a little too much oil past will cause ping/ knock, as will any cause of oil use

A heavy car and a high rear gear with tall tires will in certain conditions make this worse

What does the idle sound like? Does it SOUND like it's got a "lot of" cam?

I don't know where you are, but the "usual" gas containing alcohol actually helps a little to prevent pinging

PK1

You got some great things to think about. Good ideas above. If forums like this were around 20+ years think of all the labor hours saved...

I do understand what you are saying about under hood heat..... deal with it alot. Are you dropping oil pressure slightly when it gets this hot? and are the hose ROCK solid?

1. Reset both fans to come on together at 190 with a shut off of 185. If your tstat is 180.
2. What fans EXACTLY are you using so I can get cfms. I have yet to find an E fan with the exception of a Taurus or Lincoln Mark 7 fan that can cool a big block correctly. Add some compression and a cam.... forget it.. Most will work for the lanes after a pass but traffic? Nope..
3. Once the fans kick on do they ever shut off or are they on until the car shuts off?
4. You can measure lift at the push rod with a dial micrometer. Do it at the PR and not the spring since we dont know your rocker ratio. I cant get you duration but can check the old catalogs for lobe lift numbers and see what stick you MAY have. Its a guess at best. Do both intake and exhaust.

Chryco Psycho

your real compression #s should be 11.1 ;1 , depending how high the block is , virtually every block measured is .050 - .100 taller than spec so maybe closer to 11;1 which is a problem with pump gas , you could use a thicker head gasket , Cometic has them up to .080 thick but you lose the quench so the detonation may be worse.

Chryco Psycho

Water or methanol injection will help , longer duration cam will bleed off some of the pressure too

Gorts 5th

my brother was running a set of max wedge heads 13-1 he solved the issue by running e 85 this has a very high octane rating he also used water injection before e 85 came along and minimal advance

Gorts 5th

why don't you run e-85 it's very high in it's octane rating it can't be any sparser too find than racing fuel.

Hibred

I wish it were available here in Ontario Canada, best we have is mid grade ethanol and that is under 90 octane and even high test here is only 91 or maybe up to 93 if your lucky at certain stations. Thanks for all the help and suggestions here, appreciate all of your advice.

440roadrunner

I don't understand how you arrived at this, not knowing

1---what heads he started with

2--what pistons are in it

3--whether either or both the block and heads have been milled

4--what is being used for head gaskets

Coronet 500

There are lots of fellas with 440 cooling problems who only solved it with proper chrysler pump, pulleys, fan, shroud and a big rad. I,ve heard to stay away from 440 Source pumps, they just don't cool like the OEM's.

TVLynn

If you are going to use aftermarket pump housing Do a gasket match to make sure the water passages flow enough Having the correct pulleys is also very important. You can play with it and put a bandaid on the problem. In your case I would suggest !!!!! a swap to open chamber heads I had a 383 MANY years ago 1975? so gas was still good. Did the forged TRW pistons, cam 4.10 gears 850 DP, dual point accel dist etc. Could not keep it from pinging on pump gas. Had to swap to the open chamber heads. Had a big 3 core radiator made to cool it !!!

Gorts 5th

wow that suck's, here in Florida we got 93 oct as the premium, my 318 wont run with anything lower or she pings big time, i run initial advance at 10 with a fast curve i don't believe it has high compression my brother say's it's the ported heads and they are at the max, i even have to enlarge the intake to match the heads.
we have a few sunoco's around with racing fuel 101 oct at $5+ a gal. and a few with e 85 which i believe is like 160 oct. if i remember correctly, though i don't run it in my car to destructive to the fuel system eddy doesn't recommend it.
would like to try "tipping the can" though run nitro-methane mix.

Mr.4spd

Based on the photo, it appears that your right breather is plumbed into the vacuum port on the carb? Motor oil has a very low octane rating, and I don't believe those valve covers come with baffles. I think a mechanical clutch fan with a shroud, a 160* thermostat, and a valley pan with blocked heat crossover will help tremendously. Also, gotta check the timing and advance rate. Hooking up that vacuum advance will help the street-ability as well.

440roadrunner

Good point----but is there even a PCV valve in there or is it just an "open hose?" But the breather itself should provide some "baffle" action. I use the older Ferd style twist--in oil cap, gromment in top, and breather hose hooked to the elbow

Chryco Psycho

True , just guessing at an average build using typical parts so it is entirely variable
Using closed chamber 915 or 516 heads typically 80 cc .
Typical flat top 6 pack piston 4 valve reliefs .
Typical composition gasket .038 compressed thickness .
Also assuming the block & heads are not decked just as it left the factory .
All of this is variable of course , use the dome pistons & you will be closer to 12:1 , mill the block to zero deck the compression will rise , use a steel shim .020 gasket & it comes up more again .
SO using the Speed Pro dome piston , zero decked , .020 thick shim gasket with decked block & heads your compression will be closer to 12.3 :1 , if it was this high you would be pinging constantly on pump gas even with the engine cool .
Typically at mid 10:1 you can keep it from pinging on Pump premium , low to mid 11:1 sounds like what he is dealing with , low to mid 12 :1 & a mix of 80 % avgas with pump premium will not kill the pinging !
He may not even know what parts are in the engine & to properly calculate it it would have to be torn down & everything measured .
The other factor is the cam dynamic compression rises with a milder cam at lower RPM & longer duration cams bleed off more cylinder pressure at lower RPM so a Compression test can also help to determine where you are at .
I apologize for not fully explaining myself in the previous post
Any Sonoco Gold still sold there ? it used to be 94 octane

Hibred

Thanks again to you all and just a quick note, i really don't no what the engine has for cam, pistons or much else, bought the car and the guy i bought it from had no idea except to tell me that its an early 70's 440 engine done .30 over, closed chamber heads, mild cam, 1800 stall converter, shift kit, 3:23 posi rear and thats all i have been able to find out, know when i got the car there was 2 batteries and i know why as the alternator and charging system didn't work, the wiring was a mess under the dash but that has all been completely changed from front to back with a painless wiring kit, also added is an MSD 6A, also the linkage to the secondaires was not hooked up to work the 4 barrels and we also now know why as it knocked something awful, a mechanic friend that is old school and a real good race engine guy went through everything and set the timing curve and has adjusted it but said he has had to detune it quite a bit to help with the knock, it has been checked to make sure its not overheating and it isn't, maybe one thing would be to change the thermostat to a cooler one, might try that yet and we are in the process of installing a Snow Performance methanol injection kit, i think this will work and if not completely we will make changes one thing at a time, maybe a different carb and possibly an adjustable timing advance from in the car, i just don't want to have to change and get into the engine internally cause if i do i know it will be heads, pistons and cam and so on, trying to go the most economical and simplest way, i will keep you all informed as we go and just wanted to say a big thankyou to you all for your help and the great information, much appreciated.

Chryco Psycho

going to alum heads may be a big help , 1] you could go to a larger chamber 2] the alum will absorb a bit of the heat & allow higher compression + you can see what pistons you have & how far down from the deck they are @ TDC , using the Stealth or Super Stealth maybe a good option for you , reasonable cost & you can use most of the parts you have ,rockers etc although you would need to upgrade the retainers & locks to 10* & may have to get custom pushrods . This would still create quench as well . I would do mild port clean up & use Cometic gaskets as they do not tear with the different expansion rates between Iron & Alum . I would pull the heads first before ordering new heads in case someone used the dome pistons .