Hal9000

Morning all,
I'm looking for some opinions on a car that I might be trading for in the near future. I'm not new to classic steel in general, but until now, I've never owed any classic dodge's so I could really use a hand and some opinions before I make any decisions....

The backstory is that I have a built up '78 ford bronco that I got in trade. It's a nice rig, but not something that I'll ever get any use out. Right now I'm entertaining an offer to trade for a '70 H-code dart. The car seems pretty solid except for bein in dire need of paint and undercarriage detail, and the fact that the original 340 has been swapped out for a 360. I can tackle the paint and body work myself and get this car into decent shape, but since I don't know a lot about these cars in general, I don't know if I'm looking at a diamond in the rough, or just a dud... Any opinions about the value of the car, trouble areas, or collectibility of the car would be welcome.

Anyway here's the CL add for the car. I've spoken to the owner several times and so far everything seems to be above board. If anyone wants, I have more details and photos on the car.
http://farmington.craigslist.org/cto/3420695178.html

thanks all

lou3500

If you could post up some photos of the bronco so that a fair comparison can be made. Sight unseen of the bronco i probly would trade if it's a project that is not a popular body style of bronco here in my area. My opinion on the dart is car looks pretty good but without the orignal 340 [or year correct 340] it ain't worth as much as the seller says most folks don't care for 360s they want 340s. I'm no expert by any means,darts make nice street/drag cars [i personally don't care to own one] but if your not gonna use the bronco for it.s intended purpose then by all means trade. I'm getting the feeling that your looking to unload the bronco to get something worth more to flip for /trade up, to get what you really want due to your opening statement. Not that theres anything wrong with that.

mr340

The car looks pretty solid, but without the 340 the value plummets. My opinion is $5500 for the car with all the extras would make it worth it, finding a 340 to drop in (as close to date coded original as possible) would really make it worth more. he states that the body is free of cancer, but I am concerned with the aftermarket shifter, did he remove a console or a column shifter and hack the tunnel to put that thing in. Either way it's not a hard fix, just extra $$ you would need to toss at it.
What shape is the Bronco in and is the value comparable?

Hal9000

Sorry about not posting the ad for the bronco. Here it is with pics.http://flagstaff.craigslist.org/cto/3398186320.html

lou3500

I think i would keep the bronco or sell outright, a trade for that dart would have to include a differance. That is a clean bronco [i like it] with some high dollar parts installed. Those shocks,ladder bars ect.

Hal9000

Thanks Lou. I guess if i had built it I'd be a lot more attached to it...

I'd actually prefer a sale on the bronco, but it's kind of a unique rig and needs a unique buyer. It's a step up from what I traded it for (a 69 bronco crawler project that I had lost interest in and didn't want to leave sitting and rotting) but I'll never get any use out of it since I already own another 4x4. At least a muscle car would be something different, and there's a vibrant hot rod community where I live so if/when it came time to sell it, I might not have to sit on it too too long. I don't need the money and I'd have to enjoy the dart for a while before I even considered getting rid of it though

If it were you, what do you think the difference between the dart and bronco were be (Be fair here please. I'm not trying to get some pie in the sky number either direction). I'm not married to the dart, but it's at least intriguing and the whole purpose of this thread is so I can explore the idea.

Thanks again.

Hal9000

By the way, what do people not like about the 360's? Are there any reliability/power issues with them, or are they just not as desirable from a collectability standpoint? I was pretty impressed with the 360 in my old '81 ram when I had it. I looked at the specs for the 74 360 and it's actually lower output than the 340 in stock trim... Without knowing the history of the engine, I'll assume the 360 in the dart still has the low compression and mild cam, but it has some nice aftermarket bolt ons at least.

Along the same lines, how hard to come by and how expensive are 340's? If it came to an engine swap, do the big block swaps (I've seen a few nice old darts with 440's swapped in for sale in my research) help the value if the original engine is MIA? I only ask because I think I can lay hands on a late 60's early 70's vintage 440 along with an old Holley fuel injection unit that was taken out of an old RV for just a few dollars... That's probably more work than I'd want to do but its not totally out of the question. I've done my share of engine builds and swaps in the past.

lou3500

Lotsa questions i'll do my best to give you answers but as i said i'm no expert. As far as differance goes that's up to you in this economy things are only worth what someone is willing to pay. I suggest that you look at the dart and in your mind guesstimate what it would cost [you doing the work] to get it mechaniclly the same as the bronco [within reason] body and paint excluded.

Secondly the 360 is not desireable due to ?, i have heard folks say on more than many occations recommend building a 340 instead of a 360 why i don't know, 340s are out there but the early ones are the ones everybody wants same as the 440s and that makes them a little more expensive. A 440 will fit in that dart it has a v8 K frame shumacher makes conversion kits [motor mounts] to install it.

The value of the car is only there with a numbers matching motor/trans combo however a 340/trans date code correct [block manufacturing date] will retain the value better than any other combo but you need to research the fender tag and figure out if it is:
Low production # dart
one of how many produced with that engine,trans combo,color,options ect.
All of these things make the decisions on what direction to go many times folks with little or no knowledge of mopars have cutup a 1 of 50 car to make a drag car out of with the proper research they could have financed a different car with the sale of that car.

All i'm sayin is research this car i'm betting it's a medium production car that is deserving of a date correct 340,but a 440 mill between the rails would give it the wow factor. It all depends on how much your willing to spend cause you probly won't get it out of it at sale time. Hope this helps.

TVLynn

Earlier 340's had a steel crank later I think 71 had a cast crank. A stock 340 will out run a similar 360...

mr340

IIRC the cut off for the steel crank was mid '72 I had an early '72 340 with a forged crank.

Hal9000

Thanks again guys. Lou, didn't mean to throw out a barrage of questions expecting you to answer them all. But thanks for trying.

In a general sense, I'm patient and pretty good at searching out deals and getting better than average results on a less than bank breaking budget. I don't have any visions of the car ever being a high dollar concourse car, but a well maintained, well refurbished car that's worthy of some attention isn't out of the question. From prior experience, I could probably get it looking nice in stock paint for a few hundred dollars worth of materials, plus the cost of whatever a factory decal kit (Is the trunk stripe traditionally paint or a decal?) would cost and a good portion of my weekends and evenings over a month or two. I did my Cosworth/Mercedes in JDBB for under $100. If I kept the car for any length of time I could maybe scrounge up a date appropriate, buildable 340 for it and at least have it on hand.

Anyway, not putting the cart before the horse, beyond the obvious "google it", what is the best place/way to research the fender tag/vin info? And for my last question of the evening What would be an appropriate range for a date code on the engine/trans? I have no idea if it has to be exact, or if the cars were likely to have components that were date coded to the year prior, or even a few months prior... Not sure how Dodge date coding works yet, but every little tidbit of information helps.

Thanks again everybody.

lou3500

Fender tag decodeing can be done by looking at ALLPAR on the web or posting it here someone here may be able to help or looking for a dart oriented forum and see if the have a list of codes to figure out what you need.

lou3500

Try this one http://www.mopar1.us/build.html

Hal9000

So here's what I got. I've never spent much time dealing with option tags because my cars have either been original enough or big enough beaters that I didn't worry about it. Seems like there are a few codes not on that list but here's what the car was supposed to have.

R11- Music Master AM Radio
V8W - Transverse stripes - white
Y05 - US spec
G33 - O/S LH rem race mir
H51 - Single air/htr
J45 - Hood pins/lanyards
M43 - Grill surround mold
N41 - Dual exh w/o tips
N95 - Nox exh emis cntrl
EK2 - ?
B51 - Power assist disc brakes
C16 - Console w/ buckets
C55 - Bucket seats
F11 - 70 A alt
H6X9 - ?
TX9 - ?
A30 036796 - ?
E55 - 340-4
D32 - HD A-727 Torque flite

mr340

EK2 Go Mango Vitamin C 5065LH 5065AH 5065DH 1969-70
TX9:Interior Paint Color - Black
H6X9:Trim - High, Vinyl Bucket Seats, Black
A30: Oct,30 1969

Hope this helps.

mr340

That's Russ Snows website, I think a lot of his info came from the old lightningjar.com (owned by BBodyBob)and even Bob admitted it was not a complete list.

Hal9000

It helps. Thanks.
In general, it looks as if the fender tag matches the car. I think the only missing item might be the emissions controls, but I live in a non-emissions city so there's no immediate concern there.

Does the lack of a code for hood scoops mean for sure that it was originally a non-scoop car? Or were scoops ever/often a dealer installed item? If I were to get it that would be on my to do list just because I think the body is ordinary enough that it needs the scoops to make it stand out a bit. Plus with an extra hood that comes with the car I wouldn't be stuck with them.

Also, I have no idea how to figure out from the options list or VIN if it's a low production number car or if the option combo was really common. Is there a vin checker that includes that info out there anywhere?

lou3500

Here you go try this. http://www.degeneratepress.com/newport/vin66-74.htm

Hal9000

That doesn't really help determine if it's a 1 of 100 or 1 of 10000 car does it? How does one go about figuring that out? I'm sure I'm missing some little nugget of information that would make this easy to determine.

lou3500

The eighth thru thirteenth diget is the sequence number [i.e. where it was in production] example;000001 First car thru production,000547 fivehundred forty seventh car off the line thats the way i understand it.
see this link http://www.foundationpc.com/sales.html

Hal9000

So 158438 means that there were one hundred fifty eight thousand cars made before this one...? I'm sure that's total production and not related to if it's a rare car within the 1970 sequence right? www.forabodiesonly.com lists total canadian production for '70 darts at about 188K, and roughly 70% of them being 6 cyl cars so it makes sense that the number is just related to the car's place in the production sequence and not it's rarity in terms of options... The same site lists 13,785 '70 dart swinger 340's, but even within that how do you find out if you have a rare combo? Or is that getting too detailed for the typical collection market?

EDIT: Answered my own question. The Chrysler production option code book can answer the question, but it's apparently only available in print... Anybody have a copy?

lou3500

Like i said i'm not an expert but you have 1 of 13,785 dart 340s made of that how many 4 speeds/autos,but my thoughts are of those made how many survived the last 40 years so it is worth something more than a run of the mill 318 car, not big money but more than a 318 car [if it was complete] even then it's still gotta be worth a little more than the other.I own a 66 cuda 38 thousand and change made in 66 of that 21k were v8 cars of those 5316 were Formula S auto/4 speed cars mine fits in the other half around 15k v8 cars with autos/4 speeds mine is 1 of 9k with 2 barrel 273/auto, it's also a factory air car which is a slightly rare option for these cars.

Hal9000

Lou, how did you find all the extra information you listed for your car? (IE how many formula S, auto/manual etc)... That's what I was trying to figure out. I couldn't find anything more detailed than just the number of 340 cars.

Probably a moot point. the guy is sticking to his asking price for the value and won't consider anything but a no money trade. Based on what I've been hearing here and from a few other sources, that just wouldn't be a fair trade on my end. Unless he changes his mind I'm probably not going to end up with the car.

Life goes on, there's another guy offering for the bronco anyway.

Thanks for all the help and patience everybody.

lou3500

In my case there is a website for early Valients/Barracudas thats where i get my info,you could try ALLPAR its a website/encylopieda for everything chrysler try that one.

Hal9000

I'll give it a shot. Thanks Lou.