School me, please! '73 dart
07-04-2019, 05:47 PM
#1
School me, please! '73 dart
My neighbor just purchased a 73 Dart with a 440 out of Arizona. It appears that the prior owner did some work as its mounted with an engine plate in the front. Trans shift great and will bark the tires on the 1-2 shift. When he got it to CO he took it to a local shop and they switched the 650 Eddie for a 750 Holley and added some jetting (unsure what size).
Anyway, we were goofing with it and it felt under powered. As I was looking, i noticed that the shop did not hook up the vacuum for the secondary's. We fixed, the car feels much better. The only thing left that is slightly disappointing is that it will not spin the tires on a power brake. The rear tires are only 215's.
This is the first mopar I have ever sat in let alone worked on, so I am open to general thoughts or ideas on what the issue is. My ford 2bbl 390 with 8.2:1 comp will spin a taller wider tire so I believe there is something left in the 440 (long tube headers and 4bbl carb)
Anyway, we were goofing with it and it felt under powered. As I was looking, i noticed that the shop did not hook up the vacuum for the secondary's. We fixed, the car feels much better. The only thing left that is slightly disappointing is that it will not spin the tires on a power brake. The rear tires are only 215's.
This is the first mopar I have ever sat in let alone worked on, so I am open to general thoughts or ideas on what the issue is. My ford 2bbl 390 with 8.2:1 comp will spin a taller wider tire so I believe there is something left in the 440 (long tube headers and 4bbl carb)
07-04-2019, 08:00 PM
#2
Super Moderator
There are so many variables, first it would help to identify the 440 but more than likely it is a low compression smog motor with 8 to 1 compression. If it has a stock cam set the timing at 12° at idle with the total of 38 in by 2500 rpm. You might want to deturman the rear axle gear ratio also it could be in the 2.70 range. But I would start with a compression check.
07-05-2019, 05:39 AM
#4
Mopar Lover
CR -
Make sure you're firing on all 8 cylinders ... just takes a burnt wire.
I'd be curious as to why he replaced the 650 Edelbrock.
And, "it needed more carb" isn't an answer.
Archer
Make sure you're firing on all 8 cylinders ... just takes a burnt wire.
I'd be curious as to why he replaced the 650 Edelbrock.
And, "it needed more carb" isn't an answer.
Archer
07-05-2019, 09:07 PM
#5
I will find out what the gears are. Plug wires are brand new. I think the shop switched out the Eddie for the Holley ad a prefrence and more CFM. I pulled one plug (less than 50 miles, looks decent.
One other thing, when out of gear it idles at 1700 drop it in gear and it drops to 850, seems like a lot of rpm loss.
Thanks again!
One other thing, when out of gear it idles at 1700 drop it in gear and it drops to 850, seems like a lot of rpm loss.
Thanks again!
07-06-2019, 07:52 AM
#6
Mopar Lover
CR -
You have a vacuum leak and/or REALLY bad timing.
And a reasonably stock street 440 doesn't really need more than 650 cfm, but I'm a Holley fan, so I might have done the same thing ...
Archer
when out of gear it idles at 1700 drop it in gear and it drops to 850
And a reasonably stock street 440 doesn't really need more than 650 cfm, but I'm a Holley fan, so I might have done the same thing ...
Archer
07-06-2019, 08:46 AM
#7
The vacuum leak is interesting, there are only two vacuum lines, we added the one for the secondary and the vacuum advance. I'll pop over there this weekend and figure out what gearing, what trans, and a few pics.
07-06-2019, 05:24 PM
#8
Mopar Lover
CR -
Ah, no.
There should be one to the slave (brake) cylinder, one to the PCV, and the dist advance should be ported, not manifold pressure.
But I didn't say vacuum line. It could also be one of the carb gaskets or manifold (valley pan) gasket.
Run the engine to operating temp, and spray water around the carb, vac lines and gaskets.
When the idle or sound changes, you found the leak.
Archer
Ah, no.
There should be one to the slave (brake) cylinder, one to the PCV, and the dist advance should be ported, not manifold pressure.
But I didn't say vacuum line. It could also be one of the carb gaskets or manifold (valley pan) gasket.
Run the engine to operating temp, and spray water around the carb, vac lines and gaskets.
When the idle or sound changes, you found the leak.
Archer
07-06-2019, 05:38 PM
#10
Mopar Lover
CR -
The dist is connected to a ported vac, odds are that's not the problem.
I'd get a PCV in there - just remove one VC breather and insert the valve.
Connect it to the capped port on the rear of the carb base.
(You DON'T want a breather and a PCV in the same valve cover.)
You have a manifold vac line going somewhere, possibly to another carb port.
I'd just cap both ends.
It's a 73, and should have power breaks???
But I don't see a slave cylinder???
Any more info on what was done to the motor would help.
Archer
The dist is connected to a ported vac, odds are that's not the problem.
I'd get a PCV in there - just remove one VC breather and insert the valve.
Connect it to the capped port on the rear of the carb base.
(You DON'T want a breather and a PCV in the same valve cover.)
You have a manifold vac line going somewhere, possibly to another carb port.
I'd just cap both ends.
It's a 73, and should have power breaks???
But I don't see a slave cylinder???
Any more info on what was done to the motor would help.
Archer
07-06-2019, 05:38 PM
#11
Super Moderator
I don't see a PCV valve, that needs to be addressed.
07-06-2019, 06:32 PM
#12
Mopar Lover
I agree with the PCV to be added.... But here is what i think you can do to get things started..... But Is this a 4 speed car or an Automatic Transmission? Anyway
1. Hook up the Distributor hose direct, Get rid of the officed delay valve.. The little round yellow deal... Worthless....
2. The hose from the back of the intake to the front of the base of the carb.... Get rid of it.... Pull the fitting on the manifold and put a plug in it.... On the carb, Put a cap on it....
3. Start and warm the car up and set the curb Idle. Reset the timing like Iowan said... Reset the Idle Air... and recheck all the settings just for good measure.
You should find a big increase in the Performance....
BUT !!!!
4. If this is an Automatic car and does not have a full manual transmission valve body, You could be in bug trouble. I dont see any Transmission Throttle Valve Linkage? If this is the case, you are burning all the clutch up inside the trans.
The first three should get you headed in the rite direction.... How you answer the trans question. will see whats up at that point.
And after we are all done with this you can add in the PCV system...
1. Hook up the Distributor hose direct, Get rid of the officed delay valve.. The little round yellow deal... Worthless....
2. The hose from the back of the intake to the front of the base of the carb.... Get rid of it.... Pull the fitting on the manifold and put a plug in it.... On the carb, Put a cap on it....
3. Start and warm the car up and set the curb Idle. Reset the timing like Iowan said... Reset the Idle Air... and recheck all the settings just for good measure.
You should find a big increase in the Performance....
BUT !!!!
4. If this is an Automatic car and does not have a full manual transmission valve body, You could be in bug trouble. I dont see any Transmission Throttle Valve Linkage? If this is the case, you are burning all the clutch up inside the trans.
The first three should get you headed in the rite direction.... How you answer the trans question. will see whats up at that point.
And after we are all done with this you can add in the PCV system...
07-06-2019, 06:51 PM
#13
I agree with the PCV to be added.... But here is what i think you can do to get things started..... But Is this a 4 speed car or an Automatic Transmission? Anyway
1. Hook up the Distributor hose direct, Get rid of the officed delay valve.. The little round yellow deal... Worthless....
2. The hose from the back of the intake to the front of the base of the carb.... Get rid of it.... Pull the fitting on the manifold and put a plug in it.... On the carb, Put a cap on it....
3. Start and warm the car up and set the curb Idle. Reset the timing like Iowan said... Reset the Idle Air... and recheck all the settings just for good measure.
You should find a big increase in the Performance....
BUT !!!!
4. If this is an Automatic car and does not have a full manual transmission valve body, You could be in bug trouble. I dont see any Transmission Throttle Valve Linkage? If this is the case, you are burning all the clutch up inside the trans.
The first three should get you headed in the rite direction.... How you answer the trans question. will see whats up at that point.
And after we are all done with this you can add in the PCV system...
1. Hook up the Distributor hose direct, Get rid of the officed delay valve.. The little round yellow deal... Worthless....
2. The hose from the back of the intake to the front of the base of the carb.... Get rid of it.... Pull the fitting on the manifold and put a plug in it.... On the carb, Put a cap on it....
3. Start and warm the car up and set the curb Idle. Reset the timing like Iowan said... Reset the Idle Air... and recheck all the settings just for good measure.
You should find a big increase in the Performance....
BUT !!!!
4. If this is an Automatic car and does not have a full manual transmission valve body, You could be in bug trouble. I dont see any Transmission Throttle Valve Linkage? If this is the case, you are burning all the clutch up inside the trans.
The first three should get you headed in the rite direction.... How you answer the trans question. will see whats up at that point.
And after we are all done with this you can add in the PCV system...
What little I know out the car is that the previous owner was setting it up for the "drag strip". Which would give reason for the motor plate, elec shut off, fuel cell, etc. It certainly was a work in progress. If I had to bet, I think the engine is near stock.
Overall the car runs well, just seems like it is low on the bottom end and it should zip up to redline a little faster.
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RacerHog (07-06-2019)
07-06-2019, 07:08 PM
#16
Mopar Lover
OK... Dont need to do anything with the trans at the moment.....
Mite work on the other stuff that should help....
If not then we can talk about Convertor and Rear Axle Ratio....
Mite work on the other stuff that should help....
If not then we can talk about Convertor and Rear Axle Ratio....
07-06-2019, 07:27 PM
#18
Mopar Lover
CR -
Just for the record... The ratchet shifter is PRN123 or PRN321?
Assuming a manual fuel pump, the Holley should have worked right out of the box, with just A/F and idle checks.
Archer
Just for the record... The ratchet shifter is PRN123 or PRN321?
Assuming a manual fuel pump, the Holley should have worked right out of the box, with just A/F and idle checks.
Archer
07-07-2019, 04:48 AM
#21
Mopar Lover
43 Divided by 14 = 3.07 Ratio.....
Or if you dont want to take it apart.... Jack up the car..... turn the drive wheel... and count the number of turns the driveshaft turns... That will get you in the ball park...
07-07-2019, 05:58 AM
#22
Mopar Lover
CR -
Sounds like you need to do a little more research into the previous owner.
PRN(D)321 is not a std manual valve body on a 727 trans, s/b PRN123.
Does the trans shift by itself or you YOU have to make it shift? (and were you warned not to down-shift at speed?)
An electric fuel pump and regulator isn't necessary on that rig, unless there's something we don't know about.
Seriously doubt any reasonable (read: stock) rear gear ratio and converter would prevent a solid 440 from frying the tires, so something else is going on.
ah, fender wall headers on a 73? Why???
Archer
Sounds like you need to do a little more research into the previous owner.
PRN(D)321 is not a std manual valve body on a 727 trans, s/b PRN123.
Does the trans shift by itself or you YOU have to make it shift? (and were you warned not to down-shift at speed?)
An electric fuel pump and regulator isn't necessary on that rig, unless there's something we don't know about.
Seriously doubt any reasonable (read: stock) rear gear ratio and converter would prevent a solid 440 from frying the tires, so something else is going on.
ah, fender wall headers on a 73? Why???
Archer
07-07-2019, 06:38 AM
#23
Super Moderator
Archer, The Hooker fender well headers have been the standard B, RB Abody swap headers for 40 years. I'm sure he didn't come here to have his car critique by you.
Like I've said start with a compression check and see what you come up with. Low or inconsistent numbers will indicate the condition of the motor. Next I would look at the timing, every 440 I've ever had liked timing.
Like I've said start with a compression check and see what you come up with. Low or inconsistent numbers will indicate the condition of the motor. Next I would look at the timing, every 440 I've ever had liked timing.
07-07-2019, 09:37 AM
#24
Mopar Lover
Iowan -
I trying to explain to him that he might be getting into something that could easily be more than he bargained for.
It's a purdy engine, but a lot of the stuff the previous owner did are less than optimal for a street(able) car.
Archer
I trying to explain to him that he might be getting into something that could easily be more than he bargained for.
It's a purdy engine, but a lot of the stuff the previous owner did are less than optimal for a street(able) car.
Archer
07-07-2019, 10:11 AM
#25
Super Moderator
I only use electric fuel pumps on my project cars with today's fuels, infact I use a return regulator on my little Ford and will on my Plymouth.
The fact he has a 1700 rpm idle says he has a large vacuum leak or a huge cam with a stock converter.
The electric fuel pump and headers aren't going to hurt a thing nut he needs to figure out if it has a vacuum leak or over sized cam, do a compression check and hook up a PCV valve.
Along with determining if he has a full manual valvebody that doesn't need a throttle valve hooked up. Also the full manual valvebody has a coast first gear he should be aware that he can blow his transmission up by applying power at the wrong time.
The fact he has a 1700 rpm idle says he has a large vacuum leak or a huge cam with a stock converter.
The electric fuel pump and headers aren't going to hurt a thing nut he needs to figure out if it has a vacuum leak or over sized cam, do a compression check and hook up a PCV valve.
Along with determining if he has a full manual valvebody that doesn't need a throttle valve hooked up. Also the full manual valvebody has a coast first gear he should be aware that he can blow his transmission up by applying power at the wrong time.
Last edited by Iowan; 07-07-2019 at 10:15 AM.
07-10-2019, 07:01 PM
#27
Super Moderator
I'd say not, why put heat on the bottom of carb?
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