jonm61

The car sat for quite a while, and I'm trying to get it running. So far, I have changed the battery, battery cables, starter, starter relay, and voltage regulator. I also cleaned the connections, as best I could, at the firewall connector.

When I turn the key, I get a (not exactly) clicking sound, like you would expect with a dead battery. I say not exactly, because it's not the ticking/click that I'm used to on a dead battery; it's softer, and almost closer to a purr.

When that happens, the engine is not turning, at all. I have had, on occasion, it turn a bit, then go back to this noise. I marked a belt to monitor whether or not it was turning.

So, I'm now lost. I have no idea what to do next.

I would appreciate any help you guys can suggest. I do ask that you bear in mind, that while I do have a digital multimeter, I do not have a lot of experience using it, so if you are going to suggest that I test something, I'm going to need somewhat detailed instructions, and if it's anything other than 12v DC voltage, I'll need to know what to set the meter at. I was looking at instructions for testing the ballast resistor, for instance, and I wasn't sure what to set the meter at. In the resistance scale, mine is marked 20, 200, 2000, etc, and the instructions just said x 1. I'm trying to learn this stuff, but it's not exactly simple.

I thought about testing the ignition switch, but I figured if it was bad, I would get nothing, as opposed to the clicking sound.

Skwerly

to me, the purring sounds like it's a weak connection at the relay. i just went thru this on my ramcharger. try running a wire from a hot on the battery or the large relay post directly to the starter and see if it cranks, then trace back from there.

electrical is a finicky beast.

jonm61

You mean replace the wire from the relay to the solenoid? That's about the only part I haven't done, so I guess it would make sense. I should've done that when I was already under the car doing the battery cable. I will give that a try. Thanks.

440roadrunner

!!! STOP !!! Stop throwing parts at it. Do you understand the old joke, "jack up the radiator cap and drive a new car under it?"

Learn how to test, to diagnose, to find the problem

What you just described sounds like a

bad connection

This can be ANYWHERE in the main cableing, INCLUDING the ground cable, and INCLUDING "what you think" might be good connections at the battery

It could be a dead or defective battery.

IN ANY CASE "new" does not mean "good," as in "functional."

"New" batteries can be bad, as can any other part

This is a "no crank" condition, and SHOULD be one of the easiest problems to find

HERE is how the system works in these old cars from the early sixties to ?? late?? eighties

GET yourself some test gear. MINIMUMS are

A multimeter. In this day and age, there is NO excuse not to have one.

A 12V test lamp.

Some clip / test leads. You can buy these at Radio Shack. Get a bag or two of the two heaviest sizes.

1....BATTERY. Many ways to test / eliminate the battery as a problem, this might require a helper

FIRST, you must devise a way to activate the starter for testing. THERE ARE TWO WAYS.

A.........Using a clip lead, screwdriver or any metal object, jumper across the two large bare terminals on the starter relay.

B.........Using a screwdriver or remote starter button, jumper across the two terminals at the starter solenoid itself. Be careful you don't short to ground

Still won't crank?

CLEAN BOTH battery cable posts and clamps. Use a proper battery cleaning brush. CLEAN them. I don't care how good you think they look, CLEAN THEMw

Stab your test lamp OR BETTER your multimeter DIRECTLY into the tops of the two battery posts. NOT the cable clamps. The battery POSTS.

Note the reading. A fully charged battery should be 12.6 or so and above 12V

NOW note the reading WHILE JUMPERING the start relay. It should not be below 10V and should be higher, the higher the better

(Another quick check, while jumpering the starter, is to leave a door open and observe the dome light. Or......turn on the park or head lights. While jumpering the starter, do the lights go "way dim" or even go out?)

A BETTER way to test the battery is to remove it and take it to someone who has and knows how to use a battery LOAD TESTER

2......GROUND CABLE Move one meter probe "clipped" to an engine ground on the block. Make SURE this is a good clean ground. CHECK the ground cable connection at the block, is it tight?

"Clip" your other meter probe to the battery ground clamp, and set the meter up for low DC volts. Again jumper the starter. You should read nearly nothing on the meter, the LOWER the better

3.........POSITIVE cable. Leave your meter probe grounded to the block. Clip your remaining probe carefully to the main large starter cable stud right at the starter. Be careful. !!!YES!!! you might have to crawl under the car!!!

The meter should now read battery voltage, 12.6 or so. Jumper the starter. What does it read? Should be above 10V, the higher the better.

4........Starter relay. In the tests above, you have been jumpering the starter in such a way that the relay is completely out of the circuit. Does the starter crank when jumpering the two large terminals on the relay? If so, now it's time to get into checking the relay.

BUT FOR NOW we are going to wait for you to post back. I believe the problem lies in what I have posted already and NOT part of the relay circuit.

I could be wrong, but I am probably mistaken.

jonm61

This worked. Thank you!

Now, I just have to put the spark plugs in, reconnect the plug wires, reconnect a loose fuel line, and hopefully, I'll have a running car.


When I started this process, I had help from someone with more experience with these cars. We started with the battery, which was a known good battery from another car. We pulled the starter and had it tested. It failed, so we replaced it, and went ahead with replacing the starter relay at the same time, because it seemed like a good idea, and they're cheap enough. When that didn't work, we could hear a noise that seemed like it was coming from the voltage regulator, which appeared to be the original, and since it was also cheap enough, I replaced it.

The battery cables were definitely rough, but I didn't realize that they could carry enough power to run the lights, wipers, and other power accessories, but not carry enough to activate the starter. I guess I should've realized that, when I replaced the battery cables, I should've gone ahead with the wire from the relay to the starter, but I didn't know it carried that much power either.

So, with a fully charged battery, it's turning like it should. Tomorrow or Wednesday, I'll finish it up.

jonm61

OK, so...

Having spent a lot more time with this, I've determined that I have a no spark issue, but there's something else going on as well, and I'm not sure what.

Where to start?

When I turn the key, the engine turns, but slowly. This is regardless of battery condition; even with a jump, and the multimeter showing 13.9V at the battery, or putting the battery from my car in the Fury, it does the same thing. Well, I might get a couple of decent turns out of it, but then it slows down. So that's problem one.

Problem two; with the key on, I'm getting ~10.5-11.0V going into the ballast resistor, and only ~4.5 coming out. As I understand it, the ignition coil needs 6V, which is what should be coming off the ballast resistor, to fire. That said, I put my spark tester on the coil, and it did light up, so even with 4.5v, it's firing the coil.

However, I'm not getting any spark at the plugs. I've replaced the distributor cap, rotor, condenser, and points. I'm not 100% on the point gap, because my gauges don't have a .017, but the .016 goes in and the .018 doesn't, so it should be close enough. And it's definitely closer to correct than the old ones were.

I started to replace the spark plug wires, but after doing the first one, and still not getting any spark, I stopped.

I don't know why the engine would be turning so slowly; it's like there's resistance. And, could it be that it's not turning fast enough to distribute the spark?

Problem three; I bought a new ballast resistor, and when I plugged it in, it started smoking and got really hot. I got another one, and it did the same thing. It doesn't make sense, considering it's only getting a max of 11V. It is the right one; I double checked.

TVLynn

disconnect the distributor & see if it still smokes... Maybe a bad condenser in the distributor

440roadrunner

Very first thing is to find / fix the slow crank.

Numbha Won: Make sure the battery is charged, and take it to someone who knows how to use a carbon pile battery load tester. They usually look like this:

https://www.google.com/search?q=carb...w=1252&bih=611

This is ABSOLUTELY the very first step period, end of story.

Numahaw TEU

Inspect the cables and clean the connections and tighten them. Consider replacing them

IF IT STILL will not crank, Make sure you are actually getting power to the starter, that is, "low voltage drop. "



Numaha Tha REE

Now if you can find someone who can come to your car, or have a way to tow the car to them, you can ALSO use this very same tester to determine starter draw.

The one caveat on starter draw is that something wrong in the engine may be causing the high draw. Usually, if you determine the battery is OK, and the starter draw is excessive, the next step is to "throw a starter" at the problem. REMEMBER, "new" does not mean "properly functioning.

==========================================
IF IT STILL will not crank, Make sure you are actually getting power to the starter, that is, "low voltage drop.

If the battery load test is OK.........

If the starter amperage is in reason or you have replaced the starter with no change...........

and if the voltage drop on the cables checks out or you have replaced the cables...........

and it still won't crank..........

Then you likely have a serious internal engine problem, IE scoured cylinder, bad rod or main bearings, etc.

440roadrunner

AFTER you have repaired the "slow crank" problem, now it's time to check out ignition. You MUST realize how these old girls work

ALL U.S. cars which are 12V work with a coil operating between 8--12V through a ballast resistor when running. This is with battery voltage low 12V at night, winter, idle, and "charging" optimum with system voltage at 13.8

BUT..........in order to provide a "hot spark" for starting, all these girls use a "starting bypass" circuit to provide direct battery voltage to the coil during cranking.

On GM, this was done by the starter mounted solenoid

On Fords / AMC, this was done with the familiar "Ford style" fender mounted relay / solenoid

But Mopar just HAD to be different. On Mopars, the ignition starting voltage only comes from one place...........a separate contact in the ignition switch called "IGN2" and traditionally BROWN.

This brown wire only goes one place............It comes off the ignition switch, passes through the bulkhead connector, and goes to the coil+ terminal of the ballast resistor

=====================================

WHAT does this mean??

This means that you MUST check that this circuit is working properly, and is not defective, or plauged with poor connections someplace

SO..............AFTER the starter has been fixed


Clip your meter direct to the battery and crank the engine a few seconds. WHILE the engine is cranking, READ the meter. You are hoping for the highest reading possible, above 10.5 volts. IN NO case should you accept less than 10.

Now move your meter to ground at the engine block, and to the coil + terminal. Again crank, again, read the meter during crank

You should read within .3--.4 V of what you read before, and not accept below 10V at the absolute bare minimum.

If the two voltages differ by more than .4 V find out WHY.

jonm61

OK, thanks.

I've done some of this already. I have used a known good battery from my other car, that has 700 CCAs, which should be more than enough.

I have replaced the battery cables, and the wires from the battery to starter relay and starter relay to starter solenoid.

I have replaced the starter, but I will need to test it.

I don't have the necessary tools to try turning the engine by hand. When I had help a while back, we tried turning the engine and it was not cooperative; though, at that point, it had a lot of old oil, and gas that had leaked down from trying to get it started. When I drained it last weekend, it overflowed my 7 qt drain pan, by a lot. There was probably 9 or 10 qts of fluid in the engine. And, the engine sat, without being turned, for close to two years, so it's possible there's a scored cylinder.

We did eliminate all of the accessories, A/C, PS, etc, as they all turn freely.

If it were a major internal engine problem, wouldn't it not be turning at all, or be making some noise when it tried to turn? It has turned all the way around multiple times, and it's not making any noises.

Hopefully, it will turn out to just be the starter.

I'll see what I can come up with tomorrow.

Boat Guy

Have you replaced the ground wire from the battery to the block? If not, you can try using jumper cables from the block to the negative terminal. Turning the starter over with a run down battery could cause it to over heat and melt the solder on the armature. Even though it was a new starter, it could be bad now from the previous attempts. The fact that you are not getting the full battery voltage at the ballast resister indicates there is another problem as pointed out.

440roadrunner

Ok on the cables

Drained? this is worrysome. WHERE did all that "fluid" come from. "Overflowing a 7 qt pan" is a HELL of a lot. I assume it was not just engine oil

What do the plugs look like? Have you tried cranking it over with the plugs OUT? Maybe it's got coolant / oil / gas in the cylinders, and is trying to hydraulic lock?

Internal problem...........no won't necessarily make noise, especially if you have something like a rod/ main spun. Coolant in the oil, "having been run" will cause bearing failure. Something like that can be VERY troubling, because one can spin, and "tighten up" in there and not cause noise, yet cause friction that robs power from the starter, and causes wierd symptoms, like overheating, loss of power, and not enough power to idle. Worse, it can lead to severe failure, IE broken rod

You say you don't have the tools. You surely must have adequate wrenches and sockets. All you need to hand turn the engine is a socket for the front crank bolt, and an extension to get a "straight shot" with your ratchet / breaker bar handle. Usually, you want an extension "just long enough" to come out past the pulley stack, so you can work the wrench "around" the fan yet behind the radiator. Pulling the fan off is usually a huge help. I've forgotten, you need either 1 3/16 or 1 1/4" socket. Stick a crescent (adjustable wrench) in there and use it as a caliper to find out

jonm61

I'm pretty sure there was a little over 6 qts of oil and the rest was unburned fuel that had leaked down from all the starting attempts. That's what it smelled like, anyway.

I pulled the starter, had it tested, it was bad, installed the new one, and it's turning fine.

Since the only store that had the starter in stock is a fair distance away, and they also had the ignition switch in stock, I went ahead and grabbed one. They're only $15. After installing the starter, I changed out the ignition switch. Now I'm getting the 12V+ on the end of the resistor, off the brown & blue wires.

So, I went on down the circuit. Getting good voltage to the coil, but with the spark tester, I wasn't getting good spark out of the coil. Tested it for resistance, and yup, my brand new ignition coil is also bad. This car is eating new parts alive!

I've got to go out, so I'll get another coil and try again.

On that note, I have a question. When I took the original coil out, I found what I just identified from the part number as the radio condenser. It was connected to the positive terminal on the coil, and then grounded on the block.

Is that correct? I don't see it on the wiring diagrams, at least not coming off the coil. While I get that it's supposed to eliminate noise in the radio, how does it do that, and can it cause problems with the ignition?

jonm61

Oh, and yes, I've turned it over with the plugs out, because I was thinking the same thing. I don't have the 1 1/4" socket (that is the correct size) and I don't have a breaker bar. I don't anticipate a need for them, and as soon it's running, or I get tired of trying, the car is getting sold, so I don't really want to go buy them unless it's absolutely necessary. Based on how it's turning now, I think it's OK.

440roadrunner

Yes, the condenser on the positive coil connection is only for preventing radio noise. Hell, with all the trouble you are having, I'd leave it unhooked, at least until you get things sorted out.

Having more than one coil "bad" is troubling. Have you been leaving the key on with the engine not running?

How did (exactly) you decide it is bad?

jonm61

I tested the resistance on coil with a multimeter. The primary coil was out of spec, and I'm pretty sure the secondary was as well, but I need to find the specs for it.

The first coil that went bad was ancient. it was probably 20 or 30 years old. That's true of many of the parts that I've replaced so far.

I think I tested the new coil when I got it, and it was good. I'm thinking, though I could be wrong, that the bad coil burned out the ballast resistor, as I've gone through two new ones. Like I said above, when I plugged the last one in, it immediately started smoking. The old ones don't smoke, but they look burned on the inside.

I have had the key on with the engine not running, but not for long periods, and often I unplug the wires from the ballast resistor, so there would be no power going to the coil.

I'll put the new coil and ballast resistor in tomorrow, and see if I get spark. Seeing as I've already put a new cap, rotor, points, and condenser the distributor, if I'm still not getting spark at the plugs, I don't know what else to do, and I'm running out of time.

440roadrunner

This is a breaker point ignition? Make sure the points are actually making and breaking, and drawing current. Good way to do that is simply put your meter on coil+ and be sure you have power. Put your meter on coil -- "Bump" the engine until the voltage goes low. You should have a VERY low voltage, the lower the better, showing the points are closed. Recheck voltage at the coil+. With key "in run" and hooked up normal, you might have anywhere from 6--8V on coil+ as it's going through the ballast.

Higher voltage at the points with the points closed means they are dirty, or that something is wrong preventing them from closing and drawing current

Lower voltage at coil+ with the points closed means you may have a voltage drop problem. If so, move your meter to the "key side" of the ballast with points closed. You should have close to "same as" battery voltage.

ALSO bear in mind that a GOOD as in functional condenser must be installed in the distributor. Many think a condenser prevents the points from burning, but they ALSO "form the spark" IE what is known as "ringing" or "the electrical tank flywheel effect"

If things get "too bad" get the ignition down to it's very simplest form.........

The distributor, with properly set points, and a good condenser

A good coil

A jumper lead to the battery from the coil + terminal

That's all you need "to make spark."

Always keep in mind "the tricks" that can throw you..........a bad coil high tension wire, for example.

Age of a coil does not necessarily matter. When we sold "the family Farmall," a 1928 "Regular" after the turn of the century, I DROVE it on the trailer. It has a late 20s mag for ignition



Just today I got a Honda CT90 fired up again-----a 1968 model.....with what I'd be certain is the original coil and condenser

jonm61

I just changed the points and condenser. I'm certain that the point gap is close to .017, if not exact, and that it's closer than the old ones.

As far as the condenser, is there any way to tell good/bad?

I'll get the new coil installed tomorrow, and go from there.

440roadrunner

There's no good way to test a condenser "for certain" at home, but you can get close if you have an "analog bar" on your (digital) multimeter, or if you have an old analog multimeter

What you do is, set the meter for a reasonably high resistance range, and hook it to ONLY the condenser. The meter should "kick" and then climb towards infinity. This charges the cap from the battery in the meter

Then, reverse the leads polarity on the condenser. It should "kick" the meter hard, harder than before, and climb back towards infinity.

This shows it's not shorted, or leaky. It does NOT show the amount of capacity (ratings in microfarads, called "capacitance" of...........what else, a "capacitor." "Condenser" is the "old word"

"This" is not what you will see, because a motor cap is much much less capacitance than an ignition "cap." The "kick" will be much much faster

jonm61

Well, I finally got it to start! For the first 15 or 20 minutes, I had to keep my foot on the gas, and it was smoking like crazy (which I expected), but I was finally able to take my foot off the gas and got it to idle, for about 45 seconds...then I ran out of gas.

I'll get gas tonight, and if all goes well, it'll be up and running tomorrow.

Thank you for all of your help! I was about to give up; I never would've thought that I needed another new starter, and then another new ignition coil.

Interestingly, the ballast resistor that was smoking had the same resistance reading as the new one, so I left it in place and left the other one in the box.

I was worried about it idling and giving proper throttle response, because I was looking at the throttle linkage one day, and thought "that doesn't look right." I grabbed the shop manual and fixed it. The way it was connected, which looked like someone had turned a retarded monkey loose on it, there's no wonder it wouldn't start or run right before.

I'll update tomorrow.

Oh, and I decided to look for a video on testing a capacitor with a digital multimeter. I found this one, and using this procedure, I checked both the old condenser and the one I just put in. It they both seem to be OK.

jonm61

Well, I now have a running car! I figured out why it wouldn't stay on at idle and fixed that.

Now, it requires a jump and a shot of starter fluid to start. Those are the only problems left in getting it started. The battery is, obviously, easy enough. I know that battery is bad; it's been fried from all of the jump starts.

Here's a video of it running.
If anyone wants to see pictures, here they are. https://plus.google.com/photos/10384...NDu2fSknIr2mgE

And, the eBay listing is up, if anyone's interested.

Thanks again for all your help in getting it running!

440roadrunner

The point I was attempting make RE: condenser testing is that you can not "definitively" test a cap. If it's shorted, or excessively leaky, or maybe completely open, it might show up on a meter.

But if it's simply reduced capacitance, or "slightly" leaky, a multimeter will never show that

So if it "shows bad" it undoubtedly is.

If it "shows good" then "it might or might not be"

Glad you got it going.

The no start without a helper squirt is probably a bad accel pump. Work the throttle while looking down the barrels. You should see an instant shot of fuel

jonm61

I understood what you were getting at, I just thought the video might be handy if you have to explain it to someone else with a digital meter.

I think I'm done messing with it; I'll let whoever buys it figure out the starting issue. :-)