Newf Wit a 440

Hi All,


I am wondering how to proceed to rebuild a 440 that was given to me from a friend. He says he pulled it out of a Dodge Van and the stamping on it says it is a 78'. The block number is 4006630-440. So far, what I have come up with is that, either this was a "B" engine low compression, with under 200hp. Or that this was a "RB" engine due to the 4006630-440 stamping and had a longer stroke than the "B" engine. That said, if it is the first engine, is it worth boring out and doing a rebuild on it, and can I get some decent compression out of it?


I would like some input as to what I should replace regarding internals and what could be reused providing of course that the specs are within tolerance. I know for sure I am going to replace the cam and lifters & springs but was wondering about crank, push rods, that sort of stuff. Also is it worth while to have the heads decked or just go with some aluminum ones? I don't plan on doing any racing with this engine, I would like to get between 350-500Hp out of it though without spending $10K. Is that possible or am I dreaming.


I am pretty handy when it comes to doing my own mechanical work and have stipped engines down to the block a couple of times as well as a couple of swaps and tranny swaps, so I should only have to farm out the machining work. I am also a welder by trade and work at maintenance for a large chem manufacturing company which allows me access to borrow speciality tools from mechanic, milwrights, machinists etc. Any info on this rebuild would be welcomed, and appreciated. I am not familiar with the different add on components with a 440 such as carb options, and raised intakes, so I am green with this motor. Looking forward to tearing it down though. That will be the easy part. Please , your experience and help is welcomed. FYI I will post pics of both the tear down and rebuild as I go.

cheers,


Joe Welder

bremereric

It's a RB 440 with cast crank and low compression pistons. Bore it 30 over and get you some Keith Black 237 pistons. It's okay to recondition the rods and reuse them. Run you a RPM Performer intake and a decent cam. My Dart with a 440 will smoke the tires in all three gears. Good luck welcome aboard and feel free to ask lots of questions.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/UEM-KB237-030/

Newf Wit a 440

Thanks for the reply, So I hear there are two types of cranks, cast and forged, is this correct, and should I re-use mine? I heard of the pistons you recommended and will look into them. Do you think a Comp Cam 800-4800 rpm with a 252/252 Adv Duration, and a 425" lift is sufficient? This will only be street driven. Also what do you recommend for a CFM carb for this engine with a 30+ bore? Thanks again, Love the Dart!

Joe Welder

Coronet 500

Look up Comp Cams Camquest 6 program and play with some numbers to see what HP and Torque you can expect with different combinations.

Newf Wit a 440

Thats awesome Coronet, Thanks man.(if you are a man..lol)

Joe Welder

Coronet 500

I'll ask my wife and see what she says, I hope she answers right. I'll get back to you on that one.

bremereric

Re-use your crank your not racing or squirting so save the money. I would go for one that's about .440/.440 lift and use the matching valve springs they recommend. I would use a 600/650 cfm carb with a close to stock 440.

bremereric

I did the same when trying to gain some horses for my 1977 smog motor. Here's the link for the free download. You will have to fill in the blanks first.

http://www.camquest.com/

condor74

I would bore it out the minimum it takes to clean up the cylinders. Piston selection will be dependent on what your ultimate goals are for the engine. The horse power goals you mentioned were rather vague. If you were to build it to 1969 440 mag stock specs you will almost be at your 350 horse goal. What type of fuel are you wanting to run? If you are ok running race or av gas then I would suggest a much higher compression than if you plan to run pump gas. The crank on that motor will be cast. It is not as strong as the steel crank offered in earlier year motors. It is strong enough for some mild to mid level performance though. Another thing to consider is what is your budget?

If it were me I would probably have the crank inspected and if it is ok have it turned or polished. If you want you can have more strength if you source an earlier steel crank. I would have original rods reconditioned and have ARP rod bolts installed. Do this before you have them resized. I would also go with a high quality forged piston. Using forged pistons allows you to run nitrous if the urge ever hits you. They are less likely to break like a cast or Kieth Black Hypernuetechnic (sorry about the spelling). Definitely do not run nitrous on the Kieth black pistons. M
Make sure your machine work is spot on and then I would look at heads. If the budget allows, run some aftermarket aluminum heads such as the edelbrocks. Aluminum heads allow you to run a bit higher compression with out spark knock. This is even more important on a pump gas car where the best fuel you can find is either 91 or 93 octane. Have the entire rotating assembly balanced. I would also have the block decked to make sure the decks are true and the desired compression ratio is achieved.

In order to give cam advice, I would have to know more about the purpose and the vehicle. Alot of that has to do with how heavy the car is or what type of transmission or how high the stall is. Everything else will give you a solid build with lots of power potential. Good Luck

Coronet 500

Here are my ideas. Hold off on the top end and cam until you have decided on the vehicle, weight, gear, trans and usage. Build your short block with a compression ratio in mind. The one deciding factor will be future head quench, open or closed chamber. If closed you could go with flat top, zero (or close to it) deck and adjust piston to head clearance with gasket thickness. Open, then piston choice becomes important as there are special domed pistons now that make up the difference and give good quench. Later as the plan comes together you can get big or small cam, manifold, carb and exhaust with no regrets.
I would get one of the "How to Hot Rod" engine specific books from HP Books.

Newf Wit a 440

Well I'm sure glad that I came here before doing anything with this engine as I had no idea how important the vehicle selection impacted the cam selection. I do plan to use the original transmission which is still attached to the engine at this moment. This did come off of a Dodge Van, not sure of the model but I think it is a 727 ( would this be a suitable Transmission to use?). 350hp would definitely suit me fine as I don't want to get too deep money wise. I was hoping to spend around the $4000 mark on the engine.


That said I would like to put this engine into a passenger vehicle as I am a family man (wife & three children), I would think that it will have to be a relatively heavy sedan style car. I don't have a whole lot of preference's when it comes to models as I haven't been exposed to many vehicles of this era. I do know though, that whenever I see those old 60-70's cars I can't seem to take my eyes off of them.

I think I've come to two decision's so far with regards to this build, 1. I'm going to start off reading a book by Don Taylor "Big-Block Mopar Engines (How to Rebuild)" and 2. As far as the bottom end goes I think a cast crank would suffice for my needs as I will not be racing this engine and a forged crank seems excessively priced for a 350hp requirement.

Thanks for the info and advice. Much appreciated.

Joe

Newf Wit a 440

I was just planning on pump gas. Thanks for the info, I have learned so much in such a short time, just on technical stuff, I'm sure I'll be posting 10 times a day when I get into the engine. haha. Your info has proven very usefull as it is making me think about the whole picture and not just what I have in front of me. A machinist at work today was inline with you with regards to boring out the minimum, why make the walls any thinner than needed right. He seemed to think that the 727 Trans that is still attached to the engine(I haven't even begun to tear it down yet), would be sufficient.

I tried to paint a bit more of a picture of what I am hoping to accomplish with this build in my last post to Coronet, if you get a chance to read it. I am thinking of a budget on this engine including machining on the block around $4K. (I have room for more or less as necessary but was thinking ballpark) I would be more than happy to restore it to a 69' 440 Mag. spec. Does this sound reasonable to you? Obviously this is my first engine build, taking something down right to the crank. I want to be realistic and reasonable though and only experience can speak to that.

Thanks,

Joe

condor74

You should be able to build that into a good runner for $4000. If you buy new, then yes a forged steel crank is expensive. If you search classifieds you may be able to find a used forged steel crank for around $200. The stock cast crank is not a bad piece though. Just make sure you have it balanced as an assembly. I would use stock rods, stock crank, good forged pistons at around 10 to 1 compression ratio. Use ARP rod bolts and main bolts. Keep it mostly stock except for the better pistons. You could probably build the short block with the machine work for around $1500. That leaves you $2500 to spend on the rest of the engine. You can get a set of aluminum heads from 440 source for around @1100. Spend $300 on a cam and lifter kit. You can get a good manifold from a swap meet for $100 or less. That puts it at around $3000. Most build wind up running over budget. so $4000 dollars should be achievable. If done correctly, that should put you over 400 horsepower that will run on pump gas.

As far as a good car selection, once again it comes down to what do you want to spend. Reading between the lines, I am guessing you do not want to spend a huge amount but you do you want something nice. A 60s era B body could be had for around $5000 in running condition. Of course the more you spend the the nicer the ride. I saw a 1968 Dodge Coronet 2 door for sale in my local area craigslist for $2500. It was rough but complete and would be a fun project. I am sure there are better deals than that but you have to search.

condor74

The 727 Torqueflight is a very strong transmission. It will hold the power with out any modifications. I would probably suggest running an aftermarket cooler as apposed to just the heat exchanger in the radiator. Even more important if you have a high stall torque converter. Make sure you have the kick down linkage hooked up and adjusted correctly. They will burn up very quickly with out that hooked up. Only way you can do away with it is if you were to run a manual valve body. I wouldn't recommend that on a street cruiser like you are building though.

Newf Wit a 440

I think I will look for that used forged steel crank as you suggested as I am not having much luck finding a cast steel one with a quick search. Do you think my original one (reconditioned) would suffice for the horsepower that I'm looking for? In Classic Industries mag Edlebrock has a Power Package Top End kit for sale that includes a Cam(not sure of the specs), lifter kit, Bolts, Intake, Alum Heads, timing kit and gaskets for $2334. Do you think this might be the way to go and recondition the bottom end save for the pistons??

Joe

condor74

I think your stock crank will hold the horse power just fine. You can see if you can find one in your price range but if not I would not lose sleep over it. This is a bit on the high side but here is an example. http://www.ebay.com/itm/MOPAR-CHRYSL...item20bbd1112c

or

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Used-1969-Do...item3a6a07c9fb

On another note 426 wedge and 413 wedge motors will have the same crank shaft.

Newf Wit a 440

Would it be OK to put a rusty looking used steel crank in a bead blaster for cleanup prior to taking it to the machine shop? Also, can you expain for me what balancing the lower end (short block) means.

Thanks,

Joe

Newf Wit a 440

I spoke with a Block shop this morning (specialize in mopar), and he confirmed what you said about re-using my cast crank. He said that you can use that crank for up to 500hp no problem. That solves that part of the equation and will save me a few bucks.

Thanks again.

Joe Welder

Coronet 500

That sounds like a GREAT idea and price, and a free jacket too! That 350-7194 cam at 300/308 .480"/.495" is WAY TOO much duration, not a big deal because you have new lifters and cam only is not expensive. With the right cam you should easily have a 400-450hp, smooth idleing engine. Get going merry christmas yahoo, you've got me excited.

bboogieart

Wanting a family car you might want to go with the bigger c-bodies. Read fury, polara, or Chrysler. They are a little bigger than the B cars and cheaper to get into, but make for a good family car. 4 doors are even cheaper and not such an issue these days. makes family cruizing easier. Thats just one mans opinion.

I had my 400 built a few years back and the short block was only $1500 for .040 over bore, .010 crank cleanup. RV cam, flat top pistons & balance. Nothing special but fresh and ready to last another 40 years, I hope. I had the cam specs once but have since lost the paper work. Remember torque is what you want, not high rpm horse power for the street.

Balancing the short block just means all the peices, including the torque conveter and front balancer that must match the crank you use. your origanal should be fine, are weighed and ballanced so it won't rattle itself to death. i have read on other forums, these motors were notorious for poor balance when new, but lived and out ran the competition. However I think the balance is worth the money.
By the way your 727 trans is the best you can get for your application.
Again do not forget the tranny kickdown linkage, or like was said befor the trans will cook itself, right quick.
Good Luck Happy Christmas and wa hoo you got me stoked to get mine finished again too.

condor74

You can put a rusty steel crank in a beed blaster. You will have to have the journals polished out when you are done but if they are already being turned, that that is not an issue.

Sounds like your stock crank will serve you just fine. As mentioned balancing the rotating assembly means making sure all the pistons and rods are the same weight then making sure the weight is correctly compensated for with the counter weights of the cranks shaft. When I drop off my parts to have them balanced I typically drop off the crankshaft, the balancer, flex plate or flywheel, the rods and pistons.

Newf Wit a 440

Great, good to know. So I'm going to reuse my factory crank and rods(providing reusable) , now how do I go about choosing pistons? There seems to be lots of options with every component on this engine which is for most people a great thing. A little confusing for a first time builder like myself. I'm sure down the road I'll appreciate that though. With regards to my factory pistons, I'm getting the message that they probably have to go. Could you explain for me what the difference between the pistons in my 440 and a 69' 440 Mag? I will be running pump gas, 91-93 Octane. Thanks again.

Cheers,

Joe Welder

78D200

Welcome!

condor74

Your pistons will be low compression pistons. The distance from piston pin to the top of the piston will be shorter than a higher compression piston that would come in a 69 440 Magnum. That or it has a dish shape on the top of the piston which lowers the compression.

It should be just as simple as opening up a piston catalog or doing an internet search for forged pistons for your 440. Now here is the one thing you have to watch for. Very rarely do the pistons actually measure up to there advertized compression ratio. Generally they are quit a bit lower. AKA your 10 to 1 pistons you just bought come out to 9.2 to 1 for example. That is not always true but that is just an example. Size of your combustion chamber also effects your compression ratio. I would go ahead and pick the best piston you can afford with the advertized specs that you want. Once you get it and you go and have your machine work done, you can check your compression ratio. There are several online free compression ratio calculators. If you are close with your new pistons, you can achieve your desired compression ratio a few different ways. 1 research the available thickness of head gaskets and select the one that gives you the compression ratio you desire. 2 Have the deck of your block resurfaced or cut. Generally I do this only to true the deck to make it a perfectly flat surface but you can also customize your deck height with this procedure. 3 Custom select a cylinder head that has the desired combustion chamber size to achieve your desired compression ratio. You can also mill your heads to get the same effect as surfacing your deck on your block.

I know all this is a lot to take in for a first time engine builder so I will simplify it.
1 select your pistons with the advertized compression that you want.
2 Check and calculate your actual compression ratio when you are putting the engine together just to make sure it comes close and is something you can live with.
That is it.

With Cast iron heads, I would look to get around 9.5 to 10 to 1. With Aluminum heads I would look for 10 to 10.5 to 1.

Coronet 500

Use your new book and get comfortable with the term compression height of piston. Do your math with 1/2 stroke + rod length + C.H. subtracted from block height, this will give you how far down the piston is and then you can calculate ratio.
When you come up with some piston candidates talk to your machinist. Please don't just go on someone's say so, know yourself for sure. It's much more fun that way to. Good Luck.

condor74

I am not sure what part of the country you are on but here is a good car for your 440 project.http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac...700643184.html

Newf Wit a 440

Do you think I can get 9.5 to 10 to 1 working with the factory heads? If so than that would be great. I could really pump a lot more into some decent pistons and have a little extra for the top end i.e. intake, carb and maybe some decent headers as well, if the factory heads are workable.

All great info. I will start to shop around. Just window shopping right now though. I am getting my engine next week and hopefully my book on Mopar Big Block rebuilding comes soon. I would really like to read a great book on these engines before I tear into it so as to have a more thorough understanding of the different components.

I have built an engine stand in the past week and I am working on a small gantry crane lift tonight to use for the engine. I sure love tinkering in the new garage though.


Thanks again.

Joe Welder

Newf Wit a 440

I am definitely going to take all advice with a grain of salt. As you said, and I can say this also from experience, it is way more fun to learn about why you are making a decision rather than to just arbitrarily make one based on what someone told you to do. I will try to have a well rounded understanding of how and why engine components are designed the way they are. I'm glad I don't have to re-invent the wheel, and with direct access to your experience I am confidant that I am in good hands.

Cheers,

Joe Welder

Coronet 500

A little window shopping : http://www.kb-silvolite.com/kb_car/p...0&RodLen=6.768

The stepped pistons have been designed to work with the open chamber heads. Still like your power package with the 237's.

condor74

I do think you can get away with 9.5 to 10 to 1 on iron heads. You will be running premium fuel though. 91 to 93 octane. The Kieth Black Silovolites are good pistons but they do not like spark knock. They are very brittle as compared to your standard forged pistons. There is nothing wrong with running those pistons and they are a good high quality piston, but I might back your compression ratio goal down to a max of 9 to 1. Spark knock or detonation will compromise those pistons way more than it would on a forged.

Those books are very good reads. You will learn a lot and it does make it fun. I enjoy the research part of it and seeing what other people have done.