68lover

I'm finding more and more wrong with the wiring in my car. Last night I almost considered putting an ad on craiglist seeking a wiring tutor/assist for some but I decided I'd forge on and see what I can figure out myself and with your help. I'd rather work on this myself and learn everything about the car, that's the idea anyway. So maybe you all can help me again.

There's a short somewhere in the right turn signal, left works fine, front and back flash. Initially I thought the flasher was bad so I replaced that, then found a fuse that was out. Turned it left, everything was good, turn right, amp meter peaked drain and blew the fuse again. I pulled the rear bulb to elminate that circuit (?), and it still pegged the amps, so I'm guessing it could be either something in the switch in the column, or something towards the front? Or, I guess it could just be something in the wiring to the back. With park lights on all lights work, including the round one on that side in the front valance, is that the same circuit/bulb?

Amps always read just under 0, I would guess around -3 to -5 which means a constant drain correct? Makes sense as my battery has been getting weaker each short drive I take. Last night I had to jump it. I'm assuming the alt meter should read 0 or a slight charge all the time? With nothing on it reads about -3, with headlights on, -20. I'm assuming the first place to start is the voltage regulator? Is there just the one in the dash? Will I just pull the gauge cluster and see it? I need to get in there and put the speedo cable on anyway...

Fuel gauge isn't working, previous owner thought it was a ground issue, I see the black line from the sender come up through the trunk and join in other wires, is that the ground or the sending signal? Any insight here would be greatly appreciated. I'm thinking about just ordering a replacement since I see a couple out there for $49.

Temp gauge isn't working, I'm not sure that it is hooked to anything though. I thought I'd put 3 volts to it and make sure it's working at all or even hooked up.

These 4 issues are my top priority items. I figure I'll spend the next week learning about it and trying to find the issue. I'm picking up a better volt meter this weekend so I can get readings from the alternator and double check it's good.

So, experts, what advice can you give? I'm a also wondering if there is a complete wiring kit available to rewire everything and start clean? I thought I saw someone mention a setup but I can't recall the name.

Thanks all!

johnthegoalie

sounds like the previous owner really screw things up - have you looked into a new complete harness? you can go with the painless or ron francis for around 3-400 or an ez wiring kit, they are only 165. in the time you would be taking to go over the 40 year old harness and previous owner mess, you can install the entire harness and have the piece of mind
http://www.ezwiring.com/wiring_harness.html

68lover

Hmm,
http://www.ronfrancis.com/prodinfo.asp?number=WR-95

or:
http://www.ronfrancis.com/prodinfo.asp?number=XP-777

I'm definitely thinking that'd be the best route, I suppose how soon I stop messing around and order it depends on which one I'd really need. Will have to wait a bit to plunk down another $500.

So do those pretty much replace everything? Looks like everything except sockets for lights maybe? That cheaper one says 3-4 hour install, I can't imagine getting it done in a weekend with my level of experience heh.

I tried looking through painless's site but it's not quite as easy to use, or not vehicle specific like Ron's.

Ron's site is the one I was trying to remember, thanks for the info!

68lover

Oops, I've got power windows, so, I guess that cheaper kit is out

johnthegoalie

the ron francis by far is the best kit out there. you call and tell them what you have as what you plan on adding and they configure a kit to you. the ez-wiring is the cheapest and least vehicle specific. i can't see 3-4 hours, but a weekend is definitely a reasonable time frame. it really isn't that difficult if you take your time and double check everything.

dodgenut7

you mentioned in your thread about the voltage regulator i am not very familiar with the charger but i just had to replace the regulator in my 69 dart it was on the firewall by the master cylinder i dont know if this will help but i just wanted to pass it along

Leo 70 Dart

If you don't mind spending the money, Year One has replacement harnesses available. Steep price yes........but you just plug in and go. No need to rewire. Did you just replace the turn signal cam? I had to do that with mine and I had to work with that switch to get everything to work and not drain the battery. Can you hear the turn signal relay going with the ignition off and the lever in the middle/off place?

sweeperking

When the car is running is it charging ok? Does the amp meter needle flucuate (move rapidly, sorry cant spell) got a hunch here on the battery drain

68lover

@sweeperking - No, it's pretty steady, the only time it fluctuates is when I turn something electrical on/off. Just running at idle with nothing on it sits just below 0, around -3 or -5. Turn the lights on, -20, turn lights off, -3 to -5.

@Leo 70 Dart - No, all is quiet with ignition off, I wondered if I needed to mess with the turn signal cam, thinking that may be the issue with it?

@dodgenut7 - Here is my firewall:



From the right: wiring, windshield wipers, ???, ???

sweeperking

I was thinking maybe a shorted pos diode but not sure now does the car charge off idle say around 1000rpm? If not I can help you with troubleshooting.

Mopar_71

Hey 68lover,

Problem 1.
If both front and rear of the turn signals are not working, you most likely have a problem with one of the hot wires shorting to chassis ground. Look for a exposed wire from one of your turn signals touching metal.
If ok, the turn signal switch that is located behind the steering wheel might have the problem.
When your fuse blows does your tail lights, stop lights and dome light go out too?

Problem 2.
If you are in the - (negative) while running, your alternator isn't charging.
You can easily remove and test the alternator at an auto parts store. Most of the time for free.
Or your voltage regulator isn't working. In that picture of your engine bay / firewall. You see that rectangular silver looking thing to the left of your air cleaner? The box looking thing that only has one bolt on the bottom left holding it to the firewall? (one bolt? tisk tisk.) THAT is your voltage regulator. It needs to be grounded really good.
Since there is only one wire (mine has 2) Follow that wire. It should go to the terminal labled FLD on your alternator..

How many wires are going to your alternator?

With the engine running, using a voltmeter on the DC setting, measure right at the battery. Red on + black on - (sorry if you already knew this) You should read 13.5 to 14.5 volts dc.

Problem 3.
The fuel gauge wire (dark blue) is the sending signal. It goes all the way to your sending unit in the tank. The unit is grounded by mounting at the tank itself. There is one way to find out if the wire is good and that is you have to ohm it out. You would have to disconnect the wire from the gauge and follow it to the connector at your trunk. Disconnect the 8 wire connector that also has your rear stop/tail/turn lights. While your there, are the teminals clean? A bad contact will cause your fuel gauge not to work. If that is all good, your sending unit probably has some junk on it or it's stuck.
If your going to replace your sending unit, you might as well pull the gas tank and get it cleaned. It doesn't sound like this car has been taken care of and if your going to keep it, you should do it right the 1st time.

Problem 4.
Your temp gauge also only has a one wire sending unit (Violet color)
You should have a temp sending unit plugged into the intake manifold somewhere.
I don't know where on big blocks?
Again ohming out the wire will tell you if it's a open curcuit or bad sending unit.

You should have a voltage limiter that goes to your oil pressure gauge. It should be 5 volts dc. The other is the sending wire (green with yellow stripe) that goes to your oil sending unit at the engine.

Hope this help.

Let us know how your project and progress.

Mopar_71

Barfly

I'm stumbling on the use of the meter from the git go.

Measuring voltage you should read 12 volt or a little more with the engine off.
Appoximatly 13.8 with the engine running. There is no such thing as negative amperage as in -20 or -3. If you are seeing the - sign please reverse your leads.

You measure DC amps in series meaning,



DC Volts in Paralell



Sorry if I'm stating the obvious for some, it's just one of those Electrician things, always gotta tell how much you know

Use the continuity or Ohms / Resistance function of your meter. Remove the bulb from the socket. Check for continuity between the positve lead attached to the bulb socket and the car frame, there should be none or OL if the short is cleared. If the wire is still shorted you will read some resistance, any arbitrary number like 3.2 Ohms or 10.8 Ohms or even zero Ohms. Either way start moving wires around and try to make your reading change, the closer you get to the damaged wire or short the more active the change will be.

Hope this helps.

Joe.

sweeperking

Seeing neg amps on the meter means that you are drawing from the battery and you are not charging but it doesnt nesserly mean that there is a problem. During this era of mopar it was somewhat normal to see the amp indicator to read in the negative while idling especially with a load on (ie) headlights as I stated earlier bring the engine off idle and see if the amp meter reads to the positive. Yes the proper way to trouble shoot is to use the right equipment like a multimeter this is just a quick check. If you are not showing positive on the amp meter with the engine running at approximatly 1000rpm and the headlights on try disconnectiong the voltage regulator connector and with a teat lead or just a piece of wire ground the wire from the connector to a good ground. I see in the picture that you have only one wire most set ups have two. In the two wire set up it would be the wire that wasn't in the center however in your case you only have one wire. If you show charging with the wire grounded you have a bad regulator or regulator ground if there is no differance you most likely have a bad alternator although not for sure but now would be the time to pull it and get it checked out at you local napa or whom ever is your parts supplier

Barfly

My bad, never occurred to me we were talking about a amp meter in the dash.
Sorry, continue on.....

68lover

You guys are all amazing, thanks for taking the time to assist!

@sweeperking - Rev'd the motor with no change on the alt gauge on the dash. I will try what you suggest but I want to be sure I understand. I pull the plug from the VR on the firewall ( the square with 1 bolt and 1 wire, heh ), and put a piece of wire from that plug/wire to a good ground source on the car, start and check the alt gauge on the dash?? In essense, bypassing the volt meter ( all it does it maintain passthrough to a good ground?, is that what it's doing? ). When I looked up replacement VR online, as you mention, most look like 2 or even 3 post/wire hookups, am I missing a wire?

@Barfly - Sorry, I meant the alt gauge in the dash shows negative, representing a drain from the battery instead of a charge. I'm getting a decent multitester this weekend to do things proper. Thanks for the picts and info!

@Mopar_71 - Thanks for all the detail, really appreciate it!

I hope to be able to work on this list over the weekend, will report back.

EDIT: One more thing, if I find out it's the alternator, can I replace it with one that has a built in regulator or something, and skip all that junk? Any recommendations? If I end up rewiring I think that may be best, to do it right? http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-812109/ ??

Mopar_71

Before you do anything, I'd take that alternator out and have an auto parts store test it, for free. Then you will know if you need an alternator or voltage regulator after they tell you the results.
Electricity isn't something you want to play with unless you fully understand it so be careful if you start moving wires around.


My 72 has a 100 amp alternator (2 wire). Stock external regulator.
With my electric radiator fan, head lights, foot on the brake, radio and heater on at idle being 750 rpm....
My stock gauge needle never points to D (discahrge). My aftermarket volts gauge stays at 12.5 or more.

Leo 70 Dart

I know this is expensive, but it is also probably the easiest. Year One does make plug and play harnesses for a lot of Mopars. Just need the model and year. You have the 68 Charger? If so the dash harness is as high as $550 w/ oil light or $500 w/ oil gauge. Of course you will need to know just exactly where the problem is. At those prices I would want to be right!~ But hey....I admit to being cheap. LOL. Ahhhhh, mopars and electrical problems.......the two go together. But I would not give up my Dart for anything!

sweeperking

( all it does it maintain passthrough to a good ground?, is that what it's doing? ).

There's alitttle more to it than that but basicaly you are right. Did alittle research since my last post and found that there are some mopars between 1965 and 1970 that do use a single wire to the VR (see I learned something) Take the one and only wire that is connected to the voltage regulator and ground it best bet would be at the battery (neg terminal of course) second best place would be to the casing, I say again the outer case, not a terminal of the alternator. This takes two people either you or some one else start the car bring up to a fast idle (around 1000rpm) turn on all execerries (<----sorry dont know how to spell that word) headlights, (highbeams) fan motor, wiper, A/C ect....if the alternator is good it should show a charge (amp meter in the pos) and if it does (assuming the ground is good on the voltage regulator) you got a bad regulator. If nothing happens (no charge) I would look into the alternator.

PS as you can tell I am new to this site still havnt figured the quote thing all though I see it all the time here

(Scott--- your friendly neighborhood sweeperking)

sweeperking

As far as installing the alternator with the builtin VR yes you can install that, if you chose this route let me know I will explain how to wire in (easy money) mounting it may be differn't, make sure it fits.

68lover

I'm heavily leaning towards that at this point, why spend $30 on another VR instead of just eliminating it? I was looking at this one:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-812108/

But I'm thinking 60 amp might not be enough in the long run.

This 100 amp might be better? Not sure on the brand.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFF-7509RDSP/

Anyways, whatever tips you have for switching to this and removing the external VR would be great.

sweeperking

Wow 100amps, unless you got alot of aftermarket accessory's ie high wattage flood lights and/or some serious sound. Personaly I would think the 60amp would be more than enough.

As far as connecting it, as I stated earlier easy money but first make sure it bolts up ok keep in mind pully size if you use the old pully great but alot of folks go with a new smaller pully. You should have two field terminals, and a battery output wire on the back of your current alternator (in some cases maybe an external ground wire) on the new alternator you should have only one field terminal. Your current setup is called an "A" circuit meaning that it's being regulated after the field your new setup will be regulated before the field or "B" circuit. Of the two field wires that are hooked up to your current alternator you need to find which one is hot with ignition on. Disconnect both field wires, turn one ignition (dont start) and check for power. The one that has power is the one you will use, set the other one aside. The one you set aside should be the one that goes to your current external regulator (I would leave mounted makes it look more original).
Now you got one field wire and one battery output wire which is all you need for the new alternator. If you have a differnt setup than I described let me know there are other ways to do this I just explained the easiest.

Scott-- (your friendly neighborhood sweeperking)

MrOldart2U

Sweeper, the quote function is the little "button" @ the bottom right corner of each post....ANd sounds like you have a good handle to the problem, I know its not a "correct" way to check and alt, but the quick dirty way is to start the car and remove a battery cable from the battery, if it dies, no charge, if not it is charging, but due to his problem of having to get a jump i would bet the alt is not charging...

sweeperking

MrOldDart, yes I finally figured out the quote thing. If I can get the spelling down I got it made (lol).

72RDRNR

Not real cheap, but not too bad, and right in line with what you are wanting to do, I think.
http://store.440source.com/Lightweig...info/122-1004/
I have had really good luck with these guys and have always been helpfull whenever I have had questions.