86 5th ave. 93amp alt 6 months old, batter same 6months,
several weeks back 3-4 started to notice the starter would not start from the ignition with out turning the key several times. thought the ignition switch was in need of replacement
this morning went to the gas station and i had to attempt to start it from the ignition relay under the hood but the battery was dead. i got a jump and she fired up at the relay. i've got her on the battery charger now and shes taking plenty of amps.
my amp meter gauge never showed me a discharge or any red light warning, matter a fact it never seemed to move for the longest time, 1yr maybe more but when the alternator failed the little red warning light came on, i've read that the amp gauges in mopars cant take the high amps and they burn out sometimes burn your car up, i'm going to pull it today and see whats happening any input will be appreciated.

 

I think that's a good place to start. A break in the ammeter circuit would cause a lack of charging and electrical items not to work.

 

ok i found that the plug in type amp gauge was not making a good contact because of slight corrosion, i cleaned up the contacts and now she's showing a discharge. ok now its some where in the charging system, guess i will test all that but it still will not turn on the starter from the ignition switch the starter hits the flywheel gear but wont spin the motor, when i jump it from the relay it turns the starter and the motor cranks over,
any input helpful?

 

ok fixed the charging issue i put my mac tools uni tester on it and grounded the green field wire and the amp gauge went to full, good!
we have several used voltage regulators two were jumpy, the amp gauge was jumping at low idle smoothed out around 1800 rpm and i found two that where solid but one has the insulating jell missing so the circuit board is visible and the other is sticky and soft to the touch i'm using the one with the exposed circuit board any input on this?
is there something i can use to seal this maybe silicone gasket caulk?
the starter still will not turn over the motor from the ignition switch only if i jump it from the relay any suggestions on this?

 

now i got one of those modern starter switches just like the new fancy cars
push button, boy i just entered the modern age. it starts fine, all's well on the southeastern front.
i'm making a joke here.

 

So the starting issue was the ignition switch? Have you metered out the old one? I'm very interested in how it failed, it sounded like it was still sending 12V to the relay so I don't understand how the switch could be the culprit.

 

no i just put in a jumper wire to a push switch basically its like jumping the relay without the sparks,
i didn't remove or get close too the ignition switch yet i haven't started looking for it,i think its mounted on the steering column under the dash but i had a extra starter relay and that's what i changed out it was used but when i removed it from my old work van it was working fine but it sat for years in our electrical spare parts box, so for all i know it went bad, i'm going to open one of the relays up today and take a look at the contacts if they are fine i may have to remove the ignition switch. "there's a ***** load of wires under the dash a regular bowl of spaghetti, hopefully i can locate a new switch don't know how available thy are?"
here's another question do you think that the coil wire can transfer spark voltage though the wire to the voltage regulator wire's and cause the voltage regulator to jump "this is what i was seeing on the amp gauge when i got it working i posted the symptoms in here earlier.

 

can i seal the back of the voltage regulator with silicone gasket material?
like i said it work's fine just that the circuit board is visible.

 

Just make sure it dries before you connect it. Wet silicone is conductive.

 

You need to learn to troubleshoot, stop guessing, and stop throwing parts at a problem. If you do not have a Chrysler factory shop manual for your car, GET one

All Mopar automotive systems work exactly the same except for the late 90's EFI stuff, which I'm not familiar with.

First you have the "center" of the Chrysler system, the starter relay, which has not changed since the early SIXTIES, and looks something like this:



The COIL connections of the relay are the two "push on" terminals. To actuate the relay and start the car, there is a simple series circuit

From the ignition switch, there is a SEPARATE contact for the start circuit, and this wire only goes ONE place. It comes from the IGN switch, out the BULKHEAD CONNECTOR, and to one of the "push on" terminals of the start relay.

SO CHECK WITH YOUR LIGHT (or meter) to see if this terminal is "hot" with the key held to "start."

If neither terminal is HOT in "start" this might be a bad connection in the bulkhead connector, a bad connection at the IGN switch connector, or a bad switch.

To check that out, get under the column and access the connector going up to the switch. Most cars have a small removable trim under the column. Probe the connector (don't unhook it) and see if the start wire is "hot" in start.

WHAT DO YOU HAVE for a wiring diagram?

Next the current goes through the coil of the relay and comes back out the remaining push--on terminal. There it goes down to the NEUTRAL SAFETY switch on the transmission. This is a 3 terminal switch. We are concerned only with the CENTER terminal. This terminal is GROUNDED in PARK or NEUTRAL

To check this, put your meter on the terminal of the start relay which leads off down to the transmission. Do not remove any wires, but rather "backprobe" the terminal. IF this second terminal is HOT in "start" that is BAD. It means the neutral safety switch is not grounding You could have

a wiring/ connector problem, between the relay and the neutral switch

misadjusted transmission linkage -- TRY wiggling the shifter while holding the key, and moving it from park to neutral with the key held to start

a just plain bad switch

In rare cases something wrong with the linkage INSIDE the trans

 

well i pulled the relay apart and its clean / dry inside the contacts are in great shape though i still filed/ sanded the contacts to clean them up
so this brings us back to why
like i said earlier the relay from the ignition switch in-gauges the starter but the starter wont spin the motor as though when the ignition is turn to start position the batter voltage drops to such a low level the starter cannot spin the motor "act's like a dead or almost dead battery"
which brings up a new theory the ignition box at the start position is shorting out and grounding the battery thus robbing the starter of the full voltage/amps to crank the motor over, this is not easily accessible i have to drop the steering column to reach the box it's on top of it and there is a spaghetti mess of wires all over this will be fun,
i will see about a new one before i start dismantling the dash/column.
when i jump it across the batt. to the sel. terminals under the hood the starter in-gauges and spins the motor over, all the voltages are correct to the relay
the relay passes a voltage signal through the center of the coil in the relay box to the sel. terminal to the the starter solenoid.


these are the terminals on the back of the relay
bal. not used
batt main supply
sel. supply to the starter solenoid
egr. not used
g. ground for the relay
h. hot for the relay
this is the newer style relay not the older which 440 posted we have several of these lounging around in our spare ele. box mostly from my brothers r.r"s, and dart.
see photos the jumper i made runs to a push button switch in the car then back to the solenoid wire to the starter
so i turn the ignition to the run position and push the switch and she works.

when i first stared having this issue i posted it last week i thought the neutral safety switch was bad so i made a jumper and bypassed it to be sure it did not make a difference
so i never reattached the safety switch i just left the jumper in the plug under the hood.
i will probably get to working on the dash monday or tuesday

 

When did you say all this?

I assume the red wire you hold in your finger used to attach to the "SOL" terminal?

If the battery voltage is going very low, how does the push button cure that?

My guess is a bad connection at the SOL terminal from there to the starter.

Here again, a METER would make short work of this.

Twist the key, measure the voltage at the starter solenoid terminal. If it's low, below battery voltage, measure voltage up at the relay SOL terminal. Do this with OUT removing any wires.

These are an inCREDibly simple circuit. This IS troubleshooting 101

Learn to type. Learn to use punctuation. Learn to provide details the first time around. I'm done here.

 

440...
that is the batt. terminal, which i'm pointing too.
That red wire is going through the firewall and to the lead from my push button switch.
the batt. terminal is the hot lead from the battery.
the wire with the yellow crimp on it goes down too the solenoid on the starter.
that would normally be hook into the sol. terminal on the relay.
The red wire plugged into the yellow crimped red wire is from the other lead from the push button switch.
when i push the push button switch the starter in gauges the fly wheel and rotates the motor and she starts.
if i hook those both up too the relay not using my make shift bypass switch, but using the key the starter in gauges the flywheel but does not turn over the motor.
11-24-2012, 02:46 PM
OK? sorry too have wasted your time

 

i've ordered a new ignition switch should be here in the afternoon then i will pull the dash and the old ignition switch and replace it.
But i kind of like this push button switch. i might just keep it instead of using the ignition switch to start the starter.

 

my brother will be helping me later to test the voltage too the starter to see what is going on with it, while i start the starter from the ignition switch to see if any and how much voltage drop is occurring this is kind of hard too do by yourself.