Salty

The northeast is not a fun place to own an old car in wintertime, especially with nothing but on-street parking. This has happened over the last 5 days, done in small increments, due to having very little access to another car for parts runs, on top of the 2.5 snowstorms we have had, and generally miserable, freezing working conditions. Oh yeah, '67 dart, slant 6, 170 ci.....
Anyway, this is the jist of it....

1. Battery died - went and bought a new battery - hooked up pos and neg cables, no problems

2. Turn key in ignition, car starts instantly

3. Unfortunately, starter keeps running as the engine runs. I turn engine off, starter still running. Yikes. Jump out and disconnect battery cables, so that starter stops. I "***"ume it's the solenoid.

4. Go to buy new solenoid, but they don't have it, so i buy the whole starter.

5. With battery disconnected, I put starter in. Then I reconnect wires to starter. I hook up pos battery cable, but as soon as i touch the ground cable to the battery post, the starter starts clicking and whirring and i get sparks out of the post. Quickly remove cable from post. So at this point, i'm thinking it's the ignition switch is shot.

6. Replace ignition switch. Go to hook up battery cables and same thing - clicking, whirring, sparks.

7. Unplug new ignition switch completely. Try hooking up the battery and same thing (with NO ignition switch even plugged in, let alone with key in ignition)

So basically, when the starter is hooked up to the battery, it's goes into run mode, independent of the ignition switch....wiring diagram shows solenoid connects to a relay....i didn't see a relay but then again, i didn't have the wiring diagram with me when i was doing most of this and it's often dark by the time i get out of work....basically, the wiring is a bit of a mess from POs and I don't know where a lot of it is coming from or goes to. For example, a PO installed an electric fuel pump and the hot wire for it is snaked into the windshield washer motor wiring, so when i turn the switch for the wipers a half turn, the fuel pump shuts off. Sort of a makeshift kill switch. But i digress....
any ideas? wiring is not my strong suit. It may be as obvious as the nose on my face, but I figure someone out there may have had this happen to them.
Thanks!

Silverick

It sounds like you may have the 2 small wires on the solenoid crossed and are hooking up a + to the - side of the solenoid.

Salty

hmmm, i hooked it up exactly the way it was hooked up before these problems started happening...there were only two wires....a fat one and a skinny one....

440roadrunner

OK, if you have the original cables going to the solenoid, they used to end in a single molded rubber, I.E. the big cable and small one were hooked together.

THIS CABLE can short together inside this end molding and cause this problem.

The above is NOT likely. What is MORE likely is the starter relay has a problem

Here's how they work. Mopar is the only outfit who decided to use a relay to run the solenoid, to save wear and tear on the ign switch

Some wiring diagrams:

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1967/67DartA.jpg

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1967/67DartB.jpg

Notice the "starter relay" on diagram B just to the left and below the battery

Should look something like this:

If you have a stick, it will only have one push on terminal (3 total) if you have an auto, it will look like this, 4 terminals



The big stud hooks to the main battery, and is also a terminal point. It's hooked to one contact in the relay

The square terminal is the other contact (switch) and feeds to the starter solenoid

The two push on terminals are the coil. One terminal goes to your ignition switch, the other goes to the auto transmission neutral safety switch, and sees a ground when in park or neutral.

To find the problem, first pull the wires off the two push on terminals and try hooking up your ground. If the starter still runs, unhook the "square" terminal and try again. If the starter STILL runs, separate the two cables down at the starter so that NOTHING is hooked to the small starter terminal, and then hook up ONLY the large battery terminal.

If the starter stops running when you unhook the two push on terminals, you have a problem in the ignition switch or harness to it

If the starter stops running when you unhook the "square" relay terminal, the relay is likely stuck closed

If the starter (finally) stops running when you unhook the small terminal at the starter, you have a short in that twin battery cable.

Also, here's a service manual you can download for free: (it's a 66 but very similar)

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/ser...ice_Manual.zip

The only picture I could find of the connections is here:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i3...n/IMG_0084.jpg

which came from this page:

http://www.reocities.com/aggressor54...s/79aspen.html

and I cropped the detail here:

Some of the older models actually had the two wires molded into a one-piece rubber end and it can deteriorate inside, break, or short. This one appears to be two separate wires disappearing into the harness, but bear in mind that movement, vibration, and heat can end up welding these two (shorted) together

Salty

You are the man! I'm printing this out and laminating it! Like I said, the wiring in this car is pretty patchwork. I'm going to try all these things you mentioned and if that doesn't solve it, I will take pics of the wiring setup and post them so you guys can see what's happening. Although, we are supposed to get a foot of snow, starting very soon, so all this may have to wait til the weekend. But thank you again for all your info.

Salty

ps...does this look right?
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=39863

440roadrunner

Just compare it visually to yours. There are only two major differences over the years in these:

One is the mounting, and sometimes if the mount is a little different, you can still use it

The second difference is either 4 terminal or 3 terminal

The 4 terminal is for automatic transmission, or the later cars with a "clutch safety" swtich

The 3 terminal ones are for earlier stick cars

Be glad to help further.

Salty

it worked...it was just the relay after all....one starter and ignition switch later....well, at least I know those should be good for the forseeable future. thanks again for your help!

440roadrunner

Always happy to see one more back on the road!!

Salty

oh yeah, about that.....
(and this pic is before the last two storms)

ronnielee33

I'm having an intermittent start issue--sometimes it won't even click (though I have power--lights, etc). I'm thinking that it's just a bad connection (since I can jump it over the solenoid), but the starter relay solenoid is so old, I'm hesitant to try to unbolt one of the connections (the culprit, I suspect) without a backup. I'm looking for a new starter relay solenoid for my '63 Dart 170 without much luck, if anyone has any ideas it would be appreciated.

. Also--anyone know whether or not I can use a starter made for a 3.7 L engine for my car that has a 2.8 L engine with a torqueflite tranny? Bosch sells a rebuild with a 2-year warranty, but they only sell the one for a 3.7 L engine.

How about a wiring diagram for the '63?

gunnerman

ronnielee33. Thy www.mymopar.com for wiring diagrams. Thay also have great tech videos (there old but so is the car) Please post some photos of your car

440roadrunner

It would be better to start a new thread for your own question

Please clear up are you talking about the solenoid IN the starter, or the fender mount "starter relay?"

These are simple systems once you realize how they work.

Assuming you have an automatic car, you have a 4 terminal starter RELAY something like this:



The "big stud" is one contact of the relay, and also acts as a junction block for battery connections, and IS hooked directly to the battery

The "square" screw terminal is the other contact, and it has a large wire (no 12/ 10) which goes from there down to the starter solenoid terminal

One of the two "push on" terminals receives cranking signal from the key, traditionally yellow.

The remaining "push on" terminal goes to your neutral safety switch on the transmission, and sees a ground in park or neutral.

So if something does not work, try to DIVIDE THE problem

1 The relay coil wiring, that is, the "push on" terminals, the ignition switch, and neutral safety

If it won't crank, take your test light and "rig" it so you can clip it to the relay yellow wire while still hooked up. It should be hot with key in crank.

IF SO this means the IGN switch is OK, is getting power, and the yellow "crank" wire is OK from the switch out to the relay.

Next, unhook the OTHER "push on" terminal and ground the relay terminal you just exposed with a clip lead.

If the car cranks, it's in the neutral safety switch/ wiring

If not, and you've already checked the key circuit, the relay is bad, OR something downstream of the relay

Next, take a screwdriver and short the big battery stud to the "square" screw terminal. The starter should crank. If so, the problem is right up there in front of you, and if you've checked the IGN switch and NSS switch circuit, it's probably the relay

If the starter does NO crank, it MIGHT be the solenoid wire going down to the starter.

Short across the two terminals at the starter. IF it cranks, but will not when jumped at the fender relay, the WIRE from the relay to the solenoid is bad.

See? Easy.