Please read and help if you can
08-02-2012, 07:22 PM
#1
Need help with no fire aspen 318, tried everything, I think!
Hello,
New here but thought I would give this option a try.
I have a 1977 dodge aspen se with a 318. The problems started when i first acquired the car because it was not mechanically taken the best care of nor was it ever driven. When I first got the car it would run but when you accelerated from a stop it would either die or get real close to it. You could have it in neutral or park and stomp on the gas and it would just stumble until it picked itself back up or died. If you were driving along at any speed and stepped on it it would hesitate a little then do its normal thing.
Trying to resolve that issue I put a new carb on it as the old one the throttle plate shaft was worn and gushing fuel out the side of it. That didnt fix the issue and created a few others. Car started dying after getting hot and testing showed no fire. Sometimes it took seconds to start up again, sometimes it took hours. Now even after replacing all the listed parts I have no fire whatsoever. I did set the timing at 8 btdc once carb was replaced while it still ran. So I started testing parts and replacing things that were iffy or tested bad. Here is what I have replaced so far: Distributor, plugs, wires, cap & rotor, ballast resistor, all vacuum lines, ignition module, coil, fuel filter, carb, ignition switch, as well as a few electrical wires here and there that were worn or broken. I still have no fire. While cranking the engine the coil only showed 7.5 max volts and not cranking key on showed 4.2 volts. Obviously a problem there but what could it be? I also ran a wire from the battery + to the + of coil while cranking and got nothing. Also tried jumping the ballast resistor and nothing then either. I did check the wires running to the coil and both showed good with no breaks.
I have used an ohm meter as well as a cable tracker to trace wires and test them. I am not a newbie to working on cars, been at it for 20 + years and 10 of that was professionally, but I am stumped. If after reading my book you can offer any thoughts I will gladly try anything. I definately want to fix the stomp gas pedal car dies issue, but until we get it running again no point in tackling that.
Thanks in advance for any help you can offer or suggest.
Matt
New here but thought I would give this option a try.
I have a 1977 dodge aspen se with a 318. The problems started when i first acquired the car because it was not mechanically taken the best care of nor was it ever driven. When I first got the car it would run but when you accelerated from a stop it would either die or get real close to it. You could have it in neutral or park and stomp on the gas and it would just stumble until it picked itself back up or died. If you were driving along at any speed and stepped on it it would hesitate a little then do its normal thing.
Trying to resolve that issue I put a new carb on it as the old one the throttle plate shaft was worn and gushing fuel out the side of it. That didnt fix the issue and created a few others. Car started dying after getting hot and testing showed no fire. Sometimes it took seconds to start up again, sometimes it took hours. Now even after replacing all the listed parts I have no fire whatsoever. I did set the timing at 8 btdc once carb was replaced while it still ran. So I started testing parts and replacing things that were iffy or tested bad. Here is what I have replaced so far: Distributor, plugs, wires, cap & rotor, ballast resistor, all vacuum lines, ignition module, coil, fuel filter, carb, ignition switch, as well as a few electrical wires here and there that were worn or broken. I still have no fire. While cranking the engine the coil only showed 7.5 max volts and not cranking key on showed 4.2 volts. Obviously a problem there but what could it be? I also ran a wire from the battery + to the + of coil while cranking and got nothing. Also tried jumping the ballast resistor and nothing then either. I did check the wires running to the coil and both showed good with no breaks.
I have used an ohm meter as well as a cable tracker to trace wires and test them. I am not a newbie to working on cars, been at it for 20 + years and 10 of that was professionally, but I am stumped. If after reading my book you can offer any thoughts I will gladly try anything. I definately want to fix the stomp gas pedal car dies issue, but until we get it running again no point in tackling that.
Thanks in advance for any help you can offer or suggest.
Matt
Last edited by Matt Oliver; 08-02-2012 at 09:01 PM.
08-02-2012, 09:05 PM
#3
The voltage you checked at the coil "in run" might just be normal, as the coil is drawing current "sitting" and is thus dropped through the resistor
The way to check the run circuit is to check BEFORE it goes through the ballast resistor. The "ignition run" wire which comes from the key, through the bulkhead, supplies several things, depending on model
Up through 69, the run wire (dark blue) supplies the ballast resistor, and the regulator "I" terminal
In 70/ later, it also supplies the blue alternator field, electric choke if used, idle solenoid and dist. retard solenoid if used, and maybe a couple other smog doo dads
To check this, You CAN measure it to ground, and then compare to battery voltage, OR you can simply measure the voltage drop through the harness directly.
To do that, turn the key to "run" clip your meter from the blue alternator field connector on one probe, to the battery POS terminal on the other.
You are measuring the drop from the battery, through the bulkhead, harness, connectors, switch, and back out the bulkhead. You are hoping for a very LOW reading, the lower the better
Anything over .2--.3V means you have a voltage drop problem and should look into it.
Your top suspects are the bulkhead connector terminals, the ignition switch connector, the switch, and in rare cases, the ammeter and so called "in harness splice."
NOW the coil+ in start. This, you are checking the bypass circuit, and you can do this similarly.
Hook your meter on probe to battery POS, the other to the coil + terminal, and crank the engine USING the KEY. Once again, you are hoping for a very low reading, the lower the better. A high reading in this circuit, as above, means possibly bad terminals in the bulkhead, ignition switch connector, or switch.
THE READING YOU GOT is LOW assuming the battery was OK. The battery should be a bare minimum of 10V during cranking.
HOWEVER when you "hot wired" to the coil+ you temporarily eliminated this as a problem.
The only thing left, really, is "did you check" the distributor pickup gap?
Remove all ignition connectors, the dist, the ECU, and the ballast, work them in/ out to scrub them clean, and to "feel" for tightness.
Get yourself a .008" (inches, not mm) brass (nonmagnetic) feeler and check the reluctor (star wheel) gap in the distributor. Examine the pickup and reluctor carefully for damage, debri stuck to the parts. Also be carefull the two do not strike mechanically
You should be able to put your meter on low AC volts, hook the probes to the dist. connector and crank the engine. The dist. should generate about 1V AC
Also remember that "new" parts does not mean "good" as in functional. ANY of the parts in the ignition, even though new, could be defective, including the coil.
Frankly, I've converted mine to a GM HEI module, eliminated the ballast, cheaper, and easy to carry a spare
HERE is an "emergency" ignition I put together with a spare coil and HEI module. So far LOL!! I've used it twice to test -- fire used engines!!!
Used 360 hanging off my hoist:
The complete emergency ignition. Hook to dist, green to ground, yellow to 12V, and a coil wire!!
and the diagram:
The HEI module has a locator "tit" on the bottom. You must either cut it off or drill a clearance hole so the module will mount flat. You must have a "heat sink" and use the (usually provided) thermal grease. I have two of these, one on my 67 Dart, the other on a Toy 20R in a little Cletrac crawler I "fixed up."
You would be correct---Massey Harris tin. Toyota 20R and 4 speed, adapted to the original 3 speed Original 20R breakerless dist. and an GM HEI module.
The way to check the run circuit is to check BEFORE it goes through the ballast resistor. The "ignition run" wire which comes from the key, through the bulkhead, supplies several things, depending on model
Up through 69, the run wire (dark blue) supplies the ballast resistor, and the regulator "I" terminal
In 70/ later, it also supplies the blue alternator field, electric choke if used, idle solenoid and dist. retard solenoid if used, and maybe a couple other smog doo dads
To check this, You CAN measure it to ground, and then compare to battery voltage, OR you can simply measure the voltage drop through the harness directly.
To do that, turn the key to "run" clip your meter from the blue alternator field connector on one probe, to the battery POS terminal on the other.
You are measuring the drop from the battery, through the bulkhead, harness, connectors, switch, and back out the bulkhead. You are hoping for a very LOW reading, the lower the better
Anything over .2--.3V means you have a voltage drop problem and should look into it.
Your top suspects are the bulkhead connector terminals, the ignition switch connector, the switch, and in rare cases, the ammeter and so called "in harness splice."
NOW the coil+ in start. This, you are checking the bypass circuit, and you can do this similarly.
Hook your meter on probe to battery POS, the other to the coil + terminal, and crank the engine USING the KEY. Once again, you are hoping for a very low reading, the lower the better. A high reading in this circuit, as above, means possibly bad terminals in the bulkhead, ignition switch connector, or switch.
THE READING YOU GOT is LOW assuming the battery was OK. The battery should be a bare minimum of 10V during cranking.
HOWEVER when you "hot wired" to the coil+ you temporarily eliminated this as a problem.
The only thing left, really, is "did you check" the distributor pickup gap?
Remove all ignition connectors, the dist, the ECU, and the ballast, work them in/ out to scrub them clean, and to "feel" for tightness.
Get yourself a .008" (inches, not mm) brass (nonmagnetic) feeler and check the reluctor (star wheel) gap in the distributor. Examine the pickup and reluctor carefully for damage, debri stuck to the parts. Also be carefull the two do not strike mechanically
You should be able to put your meter on low AC volts, hook the probes to the dist. connector and crank the engine. The dist. should generate about 1V AC
Also remember that "new" parts does not mean "good" as in functional. ANY of the parts in the ignition, even though new, could be defective, including the coil.
Frankly, I've converted mine to a GM HEI module, eliminated the ballast, cheaper, and easy to carry a spare
HERE is an "emergency" ignition I put together with a spare coil and HEI module. So far LOL!! I've used it twice to test -- fire used engines!!!
Used 360 hanging off my hoist:
The complete emergency ignition. Hook to dist, green to ground, yellow to 12V, and a coil wire!!
and the diagram:
The HEI module has a locator "tit" on the bottom. You must either cut it off or drill a clearance hole so the module will mount flat. You must have a "heat sink" and use the (usually provided) thermal grease. I have two of these, one on my 67 Dart, the other on a Toy 20R in a little Cletrac crawler I "fixed up."
You would be correct---Massey Harris tin. Toyota 20R and 4 speed, adapted to the original 3 speed Original 20R breakerless dist. and an GM HEI module.
Last edited by 440roadrunner; 08-02-2012 at 09:16 PM.
The following users liked this post:
Matt Oliver (08-03-2012)
08-02-2012, 09:34 PM
#4
Thanks for the reply roadrunner. I will look into testing your ideas tomorrow. When testing everything should be tested in volts correct? My oreilly's auto has a home made coil tester that works pretty good, i am going to take the new coil there tomorrow to have it checked again. I will also check the distributor as this is the second new one i got from them, the first one never fired so i got a second one the same day and it fired right up, but that doesn't mean anything now. I saw your test for the plug from the dist and will look at the pickup coil and check gap on it, anything else to check while I have it apart to see if it's fried, it wouldn't surprise me any if it is. I will also check the wiring a little further. My goal is to rewire everything on it, but would be easier if I could find a cheap harness, but I also haven't searched much yet for one, I also don't have a real easy to follow wiring diagram, just the haynes one and I hate wiring so it's not something I have done much of in the past.
Also where or what do I use for a heat sink if I decide to go hei and the dark blue to ballast run and bypass, is that the blue wire coming from ignition switch to the ballast now? I believe i have one coming from switch and another coming or going to somewhere else. Also any gm mod work or certain one, I am hoping for the cheapest lol.
I will reply tomorrow early evening as to what i have found after doing more tests and we will go from there.
Thanks again
Also where or what do I use for a heat sink if I decide to go hei and the dark blue to ballast run and bypass, is that the blue wire coming from ignition switch to the ballast now? I believe i have one coming from switch and another coming or going to somewhere else. Also any gm mod work or certain one, I am hoping for the cheapest lol.
I will reply tomorrow early evening as to what i have found after doing more tests and we will go from there.
Thanks again
Last edited by Matt Oliver; 08-02-2012 at 09:41 PM.
08-03-2012, 08:53 AM
#5
When testing everything should be tested in volts correct?
Also where or what do I use for a heat sink
and the dark blue to ballast run and bypass, is that the blue wire coming from ignition switch to the ballast now?
Also any gm mod work or certain one, I am hoping for the cheapest lol.
Also where or what do I use for a heat sink
and the dark blue to ballast run and bypass, is that the blue wire coming from ignition switch to the ballast now?
Also any gm mod work or certain one, I am hoping for the cheapest lol.
You don't need much. On my 67, I didn't want to drill "many" more holes. Someone had mounted a Mopar ECU on a flat on the firewall to the pass. side of the wiper motor. Since there was already two small sheet metal screw holes there, I simply mounted the hei right to the firewall. It does need to be flat. Otherwise, a scrap piece of aluminum about 3" square would be fine
You want a "4 pin" HEI used starting in the mid 70's, like this:
http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/a...1&d=1268525450
The dark blue. You should be able to trace the dark blue back to the bulkhead. Judging from the voltages you first posted, and depending on what further turns up, at this point I would STRONGLY suspect supply voltage/ harness problems. Again, your top suspects are the bulkhead connector (no1) and then the ign switch connector, the switch, and in some cases, the "in harness splice)
I strongly urge you to unhook the bulkhead connector sections and inspect them.
Whether or not you perform the ammeter bypass (your car MAY already have a so called "external shunt" ammeter, so this MAY not apply. If your ammeter has SMALL wires about no 18 rather than 12 or 10 running to it, the bypass does not apply)
But the point is, the bulkhead connector CAN and DOES and probably WILL have problems:
http://www.madelectrical.com/electri...p-gauges.shtml
Last edited by 440roadrunner; 08-03-2012 at 08:58 AM.
The following users liked this post:
Matt Oliver (08-03-2012)
08-03-2012, 10:40 AM
#6
Any chance the voltage regulator could be causing some of these problems with voltage? I haven't had a chance to do any testing yet today but will be able to in a few hours. I did notice the regulator is leaking down the firewall and thought maybe that could be some of it.
Thanks again
Thanks again
08-03-2012, 08:52 PM
#7
Here is what I know so far: I am more frustrated now than last night...lol
I did replace the voltage regulator just because it was leaking down the firewall and I am trying to make this thing look good, not running just look good.
I did get it running today just by turning it over and it ran for about 10 minutes before dying.
After that I replaced I think every wire that runs from the firewall to the battery pos today as all of them were bad in one way or another. I also replaced the wire from the ballast resistor to the field on the alt and put a new end on the other field terminal. I had the coil checked and it was putting out a pretty blue spark and reached quite a ways on the gauge so shouldn't be a problem there.
I did test the plug coming from the dist. while cranking with my ohm meter on 20 volts and I got 0.00 so obviously we have a problem there. It is a new dist, but that doesnt meant anything. I don't get any flack when I exchange parts at my local store just because I have spent so much money there so i am going to pull it tomorrow and go swap it out for another. I might buy a Richporter Technology - Distributor instead of the reman cardone as this is the second one to have problems within days of buying it but the price difference is $50 more. Other than that i don't have any other info. I didn't have as much time to work on it as I thought I would today. But from what i have told you this time any other ideas?
Does anyone have a wiring diagram for the ignition switch? I know some of the wires in the past had been pulled loose by the previous owners foot and I want to make sure they are also in the right spots. One other thing, anyone know how to pull the ignition lock cylinder? I have had trouble trying to get the upper parts off after the steering wheel and not sure what I am missing. It really doesn't look like anything else comes off but the turn signal cam, or i'm not pulling hard enough.
Also what is the easiest way to bypass the ammeter? I am thinking I will tackle that tomorrow and see if it helps.
Thanks for the help and hopefully my baby will be running right soon.
I did replace the voltage regulator just because it was leaking down the firewall and I am trying to make this thing look good, not running just look good.
I did get it running today just by turning it over and it ran for about 10 minutes before dying.
After that I replaced I think every wire that runs from the firewall to the battery pos today as all of them were bad in one way or another. I also replaced the wire from the ballast resistor to the field on the alt and put a new end on the other field terminal. I had the coil checked and it was putting out a pretty blue spark and reached quite a ways on the gauge so shouldn't be a problem there.
I did test the plug coming from the dist. while cranking with my ohm meter on 20 volts and I got 0.00 so obviously we have a problem there. It is a new dist, but that doesnt meant anything. I don't get any flack when I exchange parts at my local store just because I have spent so much money there so i am going to pull it tomorrow and go swap it out for another. I might buy a Richporter Technology - Distributor instead of the reman cardone as this is the second one to have problems within days of buying it but the price difference is $50 more. Other than that i don't have any other info. I didn't have as much time to work on it as I thought I would today. But from what i have told you this time any other ideas?
Does anyone have a wiring diagram for the ignition switch? I know some of the wires in the past had been pulled loose by the previous owners foot and I want to make sure they are also in the right spots. One other thing, anyone know how to pull the ignition lock cylinder? I have had trouble trying to get the upper parts off after the steering wheel and not sure what I am missing. It really doesn't look like anything else comes off but the turn signal cam, or i'm not pulling hard enough.
Also what is the easiest way to bypass the ammeter? I am thinking I will tackle that tomorrow and see if it helps.
Thanks for the help and hopefully my baby will be running right soon.
Last edited by Matt Oliver; 08-03-2012 at 08:57 PM.
08-04-2012, 06:34 PM
#8
Ok so i bought the better quality distributor today and put it on. Car fired right up and runs forever so issue with no fire solved.
Now the next problem I have and can't seem to resolve is when I step on the gas it bogs down to either die or if you let off the pedal it will idle back up. It does also backfire through the carb when stomping on the pedal. When you are driving it at any speed (I think) about about 20 and step on the gas it hesitates a little but then picks up and goes. But the bog at a stop is constant and annoying. It does have new plugs, wires, cap, and rotor so not a fire issue now, plus a new carb on it. Timing is at 8 btdc and carb has been adjusted from 1/2 turn to 2 1/2 turns out on the screws on front of carb and everything inbetween.
Any ideas as to why it wont go from a stop???
Thanks
Now the next problem I have and can't seem to resolve is when I step on the gas it bogs down to either die or if you let off the pedal it will idle back up. It does also backfire through the carb when stomping on the pedal. When you are driving it at any speed (I think) about about 20 and step on the gas it hesitates a little but then picks up and goes. But the bog at a stop is constant and annoying. It does have new plugs, wires, cap, and rotor so not a fire issue now, plus a new carb on it. Timing is at 8 btdc and carb has been adjusted from 1/2 turn to 2 1/2 turns out on the screws on front of carb and everything inbetween.
Any ideas as to why it wont go from a stop???
Thanks
08-04-2012, 09:39 PM
#10
Lynn it appears that it is, the carb is about a week old and was supposed to be rebuilt to the specs for this car and engine so i am hoping everything is ok with it. I am going to try and shoot some carb cleaner in it tomorrow when its running and have someone stomp the pedal while i do it just to make sure it's getting enough.
I am looking for a picture of the ignition switch wire locations and colors if anyone has one. I want to make sure I have the wires in the correct place and the right ones too.
Thanks
I am looking for a picture of the ignition switch wire locations and colors if anyone has one. I want to make sure I have the wires in the correct place and the right ones too.
Thanks
08-07-2012, 09:30 PM
#11
I agree this sounds like a carb accelerator pump issue. Other than that, watch the timing marks with vacuum disconnected, and bring up engine RPM. You should see definite movement as the mechanical advance operates
You can also remove the cap and "spring" the rotor against the springs, and it should then spring back as the mechanical advance springs force the mechanism back to rest.
You can also remove the cap and "spring" the rotor against the springs, and it should then spring back as the mechanical advance springs force the mechanism back to rest.
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