64Imperial

the interior is black and white. adding some pics of my car like i said its all original. why you ask about the interior? this is the interior of how i bought it, ive never even cleaned it yet the previous owner only put 5,000 miles on it in 15 years and its been garaged. the pics by the barn and stuff is the place i bought it and towed it out that day. rebuilt the carb and new battery and it came alive. ive had it a little more than a year i was working out of state so ive not had the time, ive still not even cleaned the interior or even washed the car yet its how i found it in the barn from the person i bought it from as is all ive done is spray it off with water. I am planning on painting it a Glossy Black. the interior will have to come at a later date will cost probably like $3,500 to be completely redone good, as is now the interior is fine though so ill worry about that later. has 64,000 original miles on it. been garaged the last 15 years that i know of and was put in a local car show the biggest in the state and placed 3rd in its class how it sits.

Coronet 500

Magnificent Gentleman's Automobile you have there Bret. Looks like your researching everything thoroughly, which is good.

Personally I don't like the Thumpr cams for a heavy car as they have too much duration and too small of a lobe separation angle. I would explore other options for camshaft.

64Imperial

Thank you, and yeah to be honest i kind of like researching this stuff its interesting to me. i been kinda thinking since I like it maybe i should go to school for it. i've still not gone to school for anything so pretty much i'm a warehouse bitch everywhere I go and its getting old I want something where i could make a good living. I would love my own business i have a good business idea too spraying colored chrome would cost me about 15,000 to get started roughly could do it from my garage. I would love to build old engines and stuff too but im not sure how big that market is and how hard it would be to get customers. I bought this car thanks giving of 2014, he wanted $3900 I offered to pay him in 2 payments so he told me how about I sell it to you for 3,000 and bring the rest of the money when ever you can. i paid it off Christmas and brought it home. he also gave me a 10x10 trailer full of parts , and my trucks passenger seat my & trucks bed and toolbox and the whole imperial back seat and trunk full of extra imperial parts, windshield wiper motors, trim that's not bent or rusted, a whole complete dash with everything in it radio and all( about 300 pounds lol ) i even have 4 sets of headlight / front grill assemblies its probably like 3-4,000 in parts and none of it is bent or rusted. plus the car is complete only thing missing is the "death" jack.

Yeah after speaking to folks on here ive ventured away from the thumpr cams, and looking to run 9.25:1 ish compression with using the Hughes Whiplash 440 cam. http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/p...z&partid=30173

it seems this is a idle-5000 rpm cam but keeping the awesome sound, the lopyness is a little faster than what i was looking for originally but it still sounds good, i guess the slower lopyness i was looking for you cant realy get unless you get something thats not streetable with my build seeing its hard to change stall converters and all that. it still sounds really good though and people have seen high 11s and low 12s using this cam with 8.5:1 compression with stock heads. so it performs still too. couple youtube sound clips below. im looking at going 3" exhaust ( i know its too much for the application performance wise) but if you listen to the 2.5" and 3" on peoples cars the 3" is a deeper rumble and sounds alot better. im looking at going Duel exhaust dumping right before the rear axle with the 90 degree tips pointing kinda out towards the sides. I love the sound of big blocks with that lopy idle, I dont know where all you guys are from but here in Salt Lake City ive been to many car shows in the surrounding areas and ive only seen 1 big block they are a rare breed here, we have seen some cars that sound liek they might be a big block to find out it was only a small block 347 stroker or something like that. the 1 bigblock i seen was a 69 camaro.

the 2nd video is my favorite of the whiplash cams, but ive no clue what mufflers hes running, the first video sounds like he turned the idle up too high.
below is a really good sounding 440 with the whiplash cam with dynomax ultraflo mufflers but i think its only sounding good cause hes got it in the shed thing.

This is the original sound i was looking for ( its a 340 though ) with the lopy idle but seems you cant get that with a reasonable street application with my build / car and all that. But man do i LOVE this "horse gallop" sound! the idle starts at 43 seconds in the video

Coronet 500

I consider the Whiplash and Thumpr in the same category. In the description it lists very low vacuum numbers which I don't like for a street car, this because of the large overlap that gives it that idle sound. It flys in the face of there own at .050" duration recommendations.

http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArt...lattappets.php

Personally I like that smooth deep idle rumble of a 440.

64Imperial

Any cams you could list then maybe i could find some sound clips of them or videos?

64Imperial

and the lower vacuum what does that effect driveable? the whiplash cam says is idle is nasty then it smooths out over all after 1600-1800 rpm. advertises 232/ 245 duration @.50 lift. ... i just now seen it hughes doesnt advertise the normal duration like comp cams does the ***** thumpr i was looking at is 235/249 duration @.50 and 287/304 normal... the hughes doesnt list the normal duration thats why i thought it was smaller they are literally the same size it looks to me? the comp cams is a smaller lift

Hughes whiplash( left ) vs Comp ***** Thumpr ( Right )

Duration: Not shown vs 287/304
Duration @.50 lift: 232/245 vs 235/249
1.5 rocker Lift: .518/.518 vs .497/.483
1.6 rocker Lift: .552/.552 vs Not shown
Lobe Separation: 107 vs 107
Centerline: 102 vs 102
Lobe Lift: .345/.345 vs .331/.322
RPM Range: 1800-5200 vs 2200-6100

whiplash cam over all seems good if you read this and peoples replies on it:
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/.../t-233025.html
thats the first link i clicked on im sure there are more

Coronet 500

Here are a couple. I ran them on Camquest as a comparison.

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=715&sb=2

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=705&sb=2

265 DEH: 390hp, 475tq manifolds, 446hp, 524tq large tube headers.

XE256H: 372hp, 490tq manifolds, 430hp, 542tq large tube headers.

64Imperial

ill take a look at those and i was also wondering ive heard flat tappets wear faster than rollers? is it possible to put a hydrolic roller instead of hydrolic flat tappet? if so how hard is it and what all needs to be changed? expensive? or do flat tappets still last a while as long as its broken in correctly?

never mind on the roller cam just found a thread seems to be a pain in the *** lol. ill stick with simplicity seeing im new to all this.

Question: rockers arms usually good or need replaced? and if i changed the heads to aluminum heads i need to change the rockers too? i was looking at rockers on comp cams and man they are super expensive cost as much as the heads do

Coronet 500

Retrofit hydraulic roller lifters and cams are available but more costly. With moderate lift, proper spring pressure and proper break-in flat tappets will last.

Stock rockers and shafts will work on most aftermarket heads.

If you build your short block well and use cast heads for now, later when funds are available the top end could easily be changed with the engine still in the car.

64Imperial

Yah normally i dont really have a ton of money around only reason im getting this done is cause im selling the harley my dad gave me before he past and im getting my taxes netting me around 8000 to get all this done. other than that i have a crappy dead end job $10.50 a hour 40 hours a week.

Bob on here was saying to go with a cam thats 1500-5800 rpm range if i go that size cam for the sound im wanting with intake and heads that are good for idle -5500 rpms my bottom end shouldn't be too bad should it? ( its not a daily driver and wont be racing it, mainly for cruising around on weekends and participating in car shows.) and you know if the edlebrock E-street heads fit the stock rockers?
& how exactly does this vaccum deal work? i hear with no vacuum the car wants to keep going and not want to stop at lights and stop signs and stuff something along them lines.

I found this dyno sheet also showing the performance of the whiplash cam thought they teamed it up with performer rpm stuff.
http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArt...3245bl7cam.php

Made
491 HP @ 5300rpm
578 lbs torque @3700rpm

Even at 2600 rpm it was still making 543 lbs of torque, but only 263 HP but with this much torque wouldn't that make it streetable anyways like they claim cause its torque that makes you move and the horse power being kinda low in the lower rpms wouldn't matter much cause horse power is more for a top speed perspective correct?


Camshaft: HMC3245BL-7 (Hughes Whiplash)
Pistons: Speed Pro 2266F (9.2:1 compression)
Stock out of the box Edelbrock RPM heads with correct springs installed
Stock out of the box Edelbrock Performer intake
Carb: Holley 850 Double Pumper
1.5 ratio iron rocker arms
TTI 1 3/4" Headers

demetri

An engine with lots of vacuum typically has good response and torque at low rpm. The ability to energize the brake booster is just a by product of vacuum. Engines with poor vacuum often use hydraulic assist for brakes.

Glad you came away from the big cam. As I said, I have a .477-.488, 268-280 cam on one of my Imperials. It has adequate torque at low speeds, and a potential serious upper end. I am close to getting to that potential, and have a lot of fun revving it all the way up there (especially when the fuel pumps cooperate). But it took me a while to tune the car right. I was doing a few things wrong, but also the more you deviate from stock, the harder it gets to get the car right.

I would suggest to take it one step further. Since you don't have much money, and since gasoline will soon go up again, go conservative. Since you are not into fast driving, get a milder cam that will give you good gas mileage, and will make the car pleasant to drive. Even a milder cam can sound real good with a good set of mufflers. With a well done 440 and an HP size cam, your engine will still be good for about 350 hp, and you will be able to mush the throttle down at 2500 and it will push you hard against the seat. 0.450, 0.465, 268, 284, 45 overlap, thats what the stock HP cam was. I suggest that.

RacerHog

Demetri >>>>> Can you post up a video of what your Imperial sounds like? Might help him in Decide if it's lope enough for his liking????

demetri

Good thought. I have a few videos of this car at WOT (the .477-.488 cam), but I do not think this is what he is interested in. This car (the green one) sounds really good at WOT, but most of the sound is intake sound in the videos taken from inside the car. This is the car that I am now fighting the fuel pump issues in the other thread.

My black LeBaron is actually the one that sounds the best, and this has probably a milder cam than the one I am working on. But it has glass packs instead of mufflers. The sound of this car is great at idle, part load, WOT, you name it. At WOT, you can hear the reflections of the exhaust sound as you pass slower cars on the freeway. But it is not loud inside the car, thanks to the insulation. Again, not sure what cam this car has, but the torque seems to peak a bit over 3600, it pulls very good to 5000 (have not tried higher rpm), and has real strong pull as low as 2000. So, my guess is that this is something close to the HP cam. Unfortunately, this car needs a battery. Once I get her a battery (hope soon), then the video of the idling engine will be an option.

RacerHog

OK... Just a thought....

64Imperial

cool thanks sounds good and i was looking at glass packs or cherry bombs but wasnt liking the "rasp" sound that i kept hearing there is a mustang here in town that has glass packs( im guessing ) and when he gets on it it sounds like utter dog **** but i can hear him from my house when hes on main street like a 1/5 mile away. my dad and i were always theres that shitty sounding green mustang again as we work on stuff in the garage lol

as for the sound i want im everyone says the cams are too big with the car i have thats 5,000 pounds so it seems the sound i want is impossible cause i cant change the 2200 converter with out changing internal parts in the transmission to make it use converters from other 727 transmissions... so im stuck on this, whats the biggest cam i can run with the 2200 stall , 5,000 pound car, Stealth heads, edlebrock performer intake and what ever size carb 750? and stock manifolds. cause it sounds like even the biggest cam i can possibly run wont quite me the sound i want maybe i could get close?

been looking at these cams also:
275DEH -- http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=716&sb=2
XE274H -- http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=708&sb=2
The DEH have a longer duration on the exhaust side which is good for stock manifolds or heads that are choked on exhaust side cause of a increased exhaust duration its intake 219/ exhaust 235 wants 1800-5500 rpm range
The XE calls for a 2200+ stall my stock converter is a 2200 wanting 1800-6000rpm range i dont think 1800rpm would be that bad. im not sure what imperial runs on the freeway at freeway speeds rpm wise maybe like 2200? not taken mine on the freeway yet other than a 2 mile one exit drive just to feel it on the freeway and man did it accelerate super slow took like a mile to get up to 75 ( maybe its just cause the cars running like crap, not tuned and everything, idk how they are supposed to run in working order ) i would liek it to accelerate moderately give me some type of oomf put me in my seat a little at least. it has the stock 2.94 gears maybe ill change them to 3.23 i THINK thats the next gear set.

From looking at it the better one might be the 275DEH, but they XE274H would probably sound better? i cant find any videos of these in any 440s though so not sure every engine sounds different all i can find are small blocks that run these and a big block would run there a whole lot smoother with less gallop. there is one video i found its the best sounding ive heard it has a true gallop but its a 340.

Thanks for all the help guys hope you don't feel like i'm not taking your advice just trying to get the right build for me I know i sound stubborn, but I do know you guys know way more about this than I. & sorry for the wall of text i keep having like 50 questions / post
& how you guys feel about the stealth heads? ive herd bad things about them and they do run single springs... i could upgrade to those for $200 more than it will cost to do my stock cast heads. and they use 440 manifolds or 413 manifolds? seeing the manifolds have different bolt patterns i am assuming 440 since the websites called 440 source =P

Sorry posted this video before but this is like the best sounding idle ive found i love this sound. but this is probably a super big cam in a 340 am i right? the idle starts at 34 seconds

64Imperial

these manifolds come on all the pre-70 440s? cause 3" exhaust is what i was planning on running duels with no x or h pipe dumping right before rear axle. whast different about these manifolds over say a 1976 manifold from a 440?
I know i wont use 3" to its full potential but the 3" has a deeper rumble over 2.5"

Drag Pak

This (275DEH) milder cam would be a good option for where you wish to go with your build. It may keep you in a comfort zone with your experience level. No disrespect intended! And make SURE you degree it on installation !!!!!

I believe the 440 hipo manifolds were on many pre 71 pre smog cars back to about 1966 or earlier?! Better ask Bob!

64Imperial

Ive had a 90 lx coupe that was ~ 300 hp it ran a whole lot better than this will ( i think) that car was 3800 lbs so alot lighter with 3.73 gears, full race track stage 2 suspension( not straight line ) and manual this is automatic like i said dont plan on racing it but i would like to feel power put me in my seat at least somewhat when i nail it would love if it felt like my mustang when i nailed it but dont think thats going to happen with what ive got. the mustang was my first car at 18 years old. i know your not being disrespectful, just saying i have more sense than most people out there the power wont be too much. ive never even been in a fender bender & ive driven multiple times like 20-25 times on solid sheets of ice ( in blizzard weather 60+ mph winds blowing snow 6+ inches of snow on the freeway and zero visability on the most dangerous 150 mile stretch of highway in the USA) during the winter with no problems ( sorry if i sound mad i'm not just saying i'm a sound driver not some stupid kid ). my 413 that's in it now runs nothing like my mustang when i put my foot in it. it doesnt put me in the seat at all. idk if thats just how these engines run with these gears or if its just cause the engine runs like crap being original. prob with low compression from bad rings, old outdated probably bad plug wires, carb thats not running right and all that. how much power do you feel on these when they are running correctly? how would it pull? & whats the idle even like with the 275DEH? i cant find any big blocks around 440 CI running this to see a sound on it

& what is exactly degreeing it? you just turn the distributor advanced or retarded a certain amount?

Found one -- sounds like the idle is too high though or im wrong idk

RacerHog

I would say 1974 and back would be ok in the what was called Hi-performance area of the cast iron manifolds.... most of them you see are like the 74-67 440 in like Roadrunners and Chargers and GTX's and what not....

Not too sure that those manifolds would work in the 64 Imperial ????????
They were a little swoopy...

RacerHog

64Imperial, I think that is not a fair comprehension....

Think of it this way... How would your 90 LX stuff do in a 64 Ford Galaxy 500 loaded?
Or even a 1954 Ford Victora / Skyliner?????
1965 Fairline 500....
Nether of them are going to be power houses and lay you back in the seat with a 5.0 liter

Apples and Oranges my friend.....

Just remember... building something differant and at the show... really stands out.... The others are kind of.... Ehhhh... Seen one... You seen them all....

Just food for thought....

64Imperial

I have no clue imperial is like total different from everything else and noone does anything to imperials they all keep the 413 so no articles to look at and see what people have tried either makes this all hard. would these manifolds come off a 73 motor home too? JW cause a guy is getting rid of stuff from a 73 motor home he might have manifolds too i just scored free 906 heads complete push rods and everyting in working order with a new crane cam with lifters i might be able to use ill have to look up that cams info. got all this stuff free i just pay shipping thanks to " Drag Pak"

64Imperial

I was just comparing cause mustang is less car with less engine and the imperial with more car and more engine
Mustang vs Imperial
3800lbs vs 5000lbs
302 CI vs 440 CI
mustang = 12.58 pounds / engine cubic inch
Imperial = 11.36 pounds / engine cubic inch
so thats like a .8 pound / inch difference making the mustang at a 241.6 pound disadvantage engine cubic inches : weight ratio ( multiplied the .8 pound difference by 302 CI )

divided total weight by the cubic inches of the engine to get them numbers.
and the imperials have a tone more torque than a 5.0 has

RacerHog

Now add in all the rest of the factors.... Arrow dynamics, Drag, Efficiency, (New versus Old Technology) and see how lop sided it is still?
Just saying....


519H.P. & 568 T.Q.

Now that will set you back in the seat....

64Imperial

Yeah i wouldnt mind having an engine like that lol xD that cost more then my budget i assume though those look like iron heads? to be honest ive not looked at numbers at all yet with all we been talking about is 500 hp possible with what i'm aiming at? I would love to hit the 500 hp mark and that 578 trq
0.0 sounds fun haa

i looked at turnkey engines and short blocks they all seem over priced for what you get . and most use forged internals which im pretty sure i dont need im not high revving

what would an engine like that in the video cost?

RacerHog

Unfortunately it would blow your budget and then some all to heck.... Soooooo I dont think we are going to go this route at the moment... But the options are out there when money becomes a little more plentiful..
At this point.... You have heard the good news and the bad news and lots of options.... The choice is ultimately your to choose. If you go the cam with the hard lope. So be it. At least you will kind of understand more than when you started thinking about it.. Rite
And if you grow not to like it (the Cam) you can change that later to something a little more street friendly, and rest assured that the rest of the motor is in sound condition.... And you would still retain the value of the car by have the OEM 413 engine for the car if and when you decided to part with it...

64Imperial

in all honesty these cars arnt worth anything cause noone wants them even in total awesome condition they dont go for much my cars body style the 64 they only made 5300 of them and it ahs the tilt wheel only 1043 of them had the tilt wheel, even with that i bought the car for 3,000 noone has any desire for these cars so they wont ever be worth anything so keeping the 413 is kinda pointless to just try and keep it original it would be more easy to sell if i wanted with a hopped up 440 in it thats not numbers matching.

i think im going to just go with the 275DEH cam
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=716&sb=2

this cam runs good with a choked exhaust side which looks like im going to have with no choices to fix it seeing nothing fits imperial. ( headers and manifold wise ) they have too many options put on the car that takes all the space up, maybe i could delete some stuff and just not run it ive no clue. starting to think this is kinda a bad car to do any of this on =P

and see what i need to add to mach it. i need to find a 440 now all the 440s ive found listed all been sold so i may have to wait to try and find one, everyone in SLC area uses the news station website to post ads fro free there are zero 440s left on there now

demetri

I do not agree that Imperials are not good performance platforms. In fact, if you like going fast on the highways, it is just about the best there is. The long wheel base and large weight makes the car far more stable at high speed. The only thing Imperials suffer is bad image.

Your analysis of cubic inches to weight was not too bad. The aerodynamics play a role only at higher speeds. But the good news is that in the speeds that aerodynamics start hurting you, the weight of the car plays little role in the overall drag. And you have plenty of hp to fight the drag (may be 30% higher than that Mustang).

The only area that your Imperial suffers compared to your old Mustang is that it only has 3 gear ratios. If you want to retain the high speed potential (tall gearing), these ratios are wide apart, so you will not have the large acceleration off the line. But within a rolling race, the Imperial with a well running 440 will beat many-many cars. Definitely that Mustang. There are many cars nowadays that have lots and lots of power, like newer V8 Camaros and Mustangs, and you will not beat a 400 hp Mustang with 8 gear ratios in any speed range. But then again, very few old Mopars would keep up with these either (other than the specialized drag racers which are marginal street cars).

The other challenge with an Imperial as a performance car is that you have to learn how to drive it, and respect its size and weight. There are lots of things you can do with it, but also lots of things you can't. Especially when you have drum brakes like your 64.

The cam that I have in my car, along with the head work, should get me in the low 400's hp. This can be (already is, even though not fully tuned) a very fast car. But this is not a sprinter, its a long legged runner. The 0-60 is probably in the mid 8's. But acceleration from, say 80-100 is comparable to many mid 14 second cars. And the acceleration over 100 is very impressive. And much safer than most small and light Mopars.

What your Imperial will do, (that nothing else from the old Mopar world or the modern car world for that matter) is excellent high speed cruising for cross country driving. The high speed ride is not matched my anything other than, may be an old Cadillac or Continental (which are slow and handle like crap), and based on the torque of a (well built) 440, you also have nice part load acceleration from 75 to well over 100.

64Imperial

I did mean its not a good car to upgrade for the facts its not a good car i mean for the fact you cant get certain parts for them cause of clearance issues and the lack of information and forums of people doing these things to these kind of cars. I almost feel liek im the only person that ever done this to an imperial cause the lack of information on these things. like headers i cant get for it and they wont fit cause everything under the hood, or stall converters with out changing parts to run converters from newer style 727s ect. and ive not looked into suspension i bet you cant get that either, id love to put airbags on it ( not to drop it to the ground that would look stupid) but i wouldn't mind a little lower stance. i'm pretty positive i can upgrade to disc brakes. but tbh this car stops super quick it has a 3" nascar drums on it. it stops what feels faster than my 1995 chevy k1500 and i know it stops faster than the mustang i had ( they had **** brakes anyways )

Would you recommend different gears? & any idea if they make gear splitters for these i think they are called gear splitters...... where you get like a overdrive or what ever?
they probably don't have it for this transmission though.( i don't know what all is different between this transmission and the newer 727s other than how the stall converter hook up. if so how expensive is this option?

Coronet 500

I've been to many Mopar shows and honestly as much as I love them the rows of Coronets, Cudas and '67 Belvederes can get old, the older luxury Chryslers is what draw my attention now. When you drive one of these into a show you have the wow factor, I love them probably more than the Muscle Cars.

A search will find Chrysler forums and Imperial forums, they are out there.

Look up Torqueflite A-727 Transmission Handbook by Carl H. Munroe, probably find a pdf or the book to answer any questions.

As far as what car to buy my criteria for older cars is 1 chrome, 2 glass and 3 rust. you have all these in good shape at a good price, I'd say you have a steal, purchase of a life time.

It may seem daunting now but I think it is worth your effort.

demetri

The reason why you do not find headers for Imperials is because you do not need them. You do not need 500 hp to make an Imperial fast. 500 hp is not a street car, is a race car (at least, it is with 60s technology) As long as the term "fast" does not refer to 1/8 mile drag races. 400 hp is more than enough to make the car excellent high speed cruiser, even with the gearing as is. You have to appreciate what you have for what it is.

Change gears? This is the main factor that will boost low speed acceleration. Much more than headers, cams, or heads. But I would not do that with my car. I value high speed performance and cruising far more than low speed acceleration. But you is not me. If getting 0-60 8.0-8.5 seconds and all in one gear is absolutely unacceptable for you, you can try 3.23. Reasonable compromise, 72 -75 Imperials did it. But its $$. If you want to put more money to it, you can go down to a 3.55 with gear vendors overdrive, and you have both ends. That is getting expensive though ($3K +), and personally, I like to keep things simple (that contradicts me with my fuel pump mess that I described in my other thread! )

One thing to keep in mind. If you cannot over ride the automatic shift, and get that engine to rev, all of that is irrelevant. Road tests of Imperials show really poor 0-60 due to premature shifting.

I like muscle cars too. But keep in mind that muscle cars were build as cheap as they could get away with. It varies from car to car, but anything on them were cheaply built. But they have their own appeal, and sure are interesting to drive around. But the market has made them ridiculously expensive. You pay too much, and you don't get much. The Imperials were the opposite. Everything was built as nice and expensive as they could get away with, and a lot more hours on stylists and design were spent. The reason why they are not appreciated by the market is not that they are slow (as said they are effectively faster than any muscle car in any long trip). The reason is how silly and irrational the classic car market is. That helps you get your Imperial at low cost. It will also hurt you when you try to sell it. So ... don't sell it!