Dlo3575

Here is a the story.....

My son bought a General Lee (1969 Charger) for his first car. The body was surprisingly decent, but the tired old (non matching) 340 was sorely lacking. I eventually found a 73 440 (running) that only had 70K on it from an old lady's estate. My son and I pulled it and broke it down. The block was hot tanked, the crank was turned .10 and the block was magged. That is where I am at. Now, I am a Chevy guy, so I really don't know much about MOPAR. So I am here at this forum asking about rebuild advice. I was hoping to use Indy heads, but I am reading it might require special rebuild parts. I was willing to buy new rods, pistons, a mild to moderate cam (but too aggressive), all new bolts, maybe a crank (if required), new intake (thinking of doing a 6-pak), girdle, and correct oil pan to fit the girdle add on and the clearance issue of a 1969 Charger. So here I am. I have not spent a dime on new parts yet. I would like a seasoned MOPAR guy to give me some good advice, warnings, ideas and areas of concern about this project. I appreciate any help y'all can give. Thanks!!!

67 GTX

what are your plans for the car?
racing?
what rear end do you have in it now?
trans?
is the crank a forged steel one?

Dlo3575

Thanks for the web page. I added it to my favorites. Now here is the latest:

I dropped the block off at the machine shop again to get a better hot tanking and to have him clean up all the water jackets (ports), get the block super clean, go thru the threads and bore the block .30. He said even though the block only had 70K miles on it, he said it should be bored and .10 was not an option. It thought that was weird. He said less than .30 is hard to get pistons for 440? Is that right? I know absolutely nothing about MOPAR so I feel stupid.

I did speak to a local powder coating guy. He said he can powder coat the block, no problem. He wants the block tanked again and to get it super cleaned up. He assured me he could cover the block in all the righht places to avoid coating the internals and bolt hols with powder coat. Let's hope so.

Pics to follow soon.

Now where do I find the rear end ratio (easily). The car is in running condition, so rippout the rear end is not something I want to do quite yet. Also, what kind of tranny issue will I have? It is a 340 in their now. What will I need to put in there? I got a tranny out of the 73 dodge Diplomat when i took out the 440. How can I tell what it is? Will I need a new drive shaft?

Thanks for y'alls help!

67 GTX

you can either get the numbers off the gears in the rear
or
put the car in neutral
jack the back wheels up
chalk the driveshaft and tire
and see how many times the driveshaft spins after one rotation of the tire

you have a small block tranny in there now
the 440 uses a big block tranny
both are 727's, but they bolt up differently
you need a different driveshaft too i think

Dlo3575

I posted some pics in my album. I am starting to research rebuild kits. The machine shop said I had to bore .30, was he full of it? The motor was in good shape (low miles). I will checl out the gear ratio tomorrow. I appreciate any advice I can get. I am trying to decide whether to go Indy vs Edelbrock. Machine shop guy says Indy will not work on pump gas because compression will likely be 11.5 to 1. I was thinking I could alter Pistons and change the ratio, but he was really pushing hard not to go Indy...any comments?

toad490

Which Indy heads are you looking at? You can get pistons for most any ratio you want. My 511 works out to 11-1 with 440-1 heads machined to 65cc, the pistons are flat top BME but have huge valve pockets (.731 lift). If you go with Indy they can set you up with pistons ect. They are not cheap but it's all top shelf stuff and if you can afford it they are the best and you know the stuff will all work together.

BuckNeccid

Dlo, someone up above asked, what do you plan for the engine? Racing, cruise, just a strong engine, etc. Knowing that will help a LOT in us giving you our opinions on where to go with the rebuild.

The tranny you got with the 440 almost has to be a 727, and you might freshen it up some, but you'll need to use it behind the 440. The tranny with the small block won't bolt up.

The Indy heads are a lot of money for just street cruising, you can get better heads just for running around. The Edelbrock heads are decent heads, but you're looking at what, about $1500 for a set? The 440 source Stealth heads are darn close in performance, if not equal, for about $900. I'm using a set on mine, and I'm more than happy with them. With them being aluminum, you can still keep your compression ratio in the 10.0-10.5 on pump gas with no problems at all.

I'm NOT knocking Chevy's, I'm doing a 55 right now myself, and have built many in the past, but one BIG difference between Chevy and Mopar is that the Mopar is MUCH stronger to start with than the Chevy. Unless you plan on making about 800 or above HP, I wouldn't worry about a girdle, or new rods. You could replace the crank if it's cast, pre 73 had forged cranks. Look at your balancer, if it's real thick, like about 2 in, then you prolly have a cast crank. If you look at how your crank and mains sit in there, you'll see the block sides drop down past the centerline of the crank. That gives it more strength.

What I'm running in the car in the Avatar is a 440, .030 over, 10.0-1, a Lunati Voodoo Cam of about .530/.550 lift, an old Weiand intake, 440 Source heads, Heddman headers (2") a 750 Holley, with a 2800 stall and 3.55 Gears. My car weight is about the same as your Charger, and at the end of last year, we took it to the track. /8th mile was 8.30's, which comes out to a 13.03 1/4 according to the convertors on line. The car is very streetable, I drove it 50 miles to the track, no overheating, no problems at all. The worst thing I've had with it is trying to get enough vacuum for the power brakes. BTW, those times are with PS and AC on the engine.

One really important thing, if you're not going with a roller cam, make sure you use an engine oil that still has zinc in it, or else add some sort of zinc additive like ZDDP. The lack of it in the newer oils has been causing flat tappet cams to be wiped. I've already had to change one simply because I got scatterbrained and forgot to put the additive in when I got sidetracked.

toad490

If your looking at a girdle take a look at this guys stuff, it's the nicest I've ever seen. You might want to just go with the ally main caps, unless your going really big hp they'll do the job.

http://www.bcrproducts.com/caps_and_girdle_system.html

Dlo3575

Some more pics posted in my album. Also answering a few questions: The car is for street use. Want lots of reliable nasty MOPAR power without racing fuel. Money really is not an issue. I don't know anything about MOPAR so I just want some building suggestions: (Go indy heads, blah blah intake, cam witha BLA BLAh and so on ). I don't mind buying all new components like rods, pistons and what not, but info like flat tappets without zinc additives is very useful info. I would say I am a 6 out of 10 when it comes to engine rebuild know how. However, this is about a cool father son project, not dropping off the motor to a rpo sho and leaving my visa! Any advice is welcome and mos certianly appreciated. One other thing, reliability is key.

Dlo3575

Since my 440 came out of a 73 Dodge Diplomat, I will assume the crank is cast, but I will check it out, maybe post the pic and y'all can decide. So I gues I will be looking for a crank too. No big deal, but the info on the cast crank was very helpful, thanks.

BuckNeccid

Money no object, power, and key reliability Lemme make a couple of suggestions then. Holley's Pro Jection setup @ a 750 cfm level, which should handle up to 550/600 hp. That's gonna give you an easy start, good fuel supply, and all around good driveabilty that's tuneable with your laptop. Your son should love the "tuner" tie in.

MSD distributor or something similar, along with an MSD box for sure certain spark and rock solid timing.

One more suggestion. Buy some sort of computer dyno program, and the two of you sit down, and plug different cam, compression, head, etc options into it and see what results you get before you start buying parts for the engine. That will help you get the best package you can before you actually find out that this cam won't work with that compression, etc. It will also give the two of you some more time sitting together to talk, let you go as wild as you want without having to re-do something when you find out the power band is about 4000 rpm and you can't street drive it. Also shows the kid that Dad's got puter skilz. More tuner stuff applied to high cubic in?

One more suggestion... Mopar Performance used to have a book/plan on how to build an engine to several different levels, from mild to wild. Each one had specific parts and recommendations as to what to do to get to a certain power level. Some of it was self serving, such as "add Chrysler Chrome valve covers", but they were obvious. Check e-bay/Amazon.com, etc and you should be able to find a copy of it. It's a good blueprint. Someone else could prolly tell you more about that, but I think it was options to take your car as low as 10's by following thier plans.

500 hp is pretty easy to get from a 440 without too much wildness...

Dlo3575

Thanks for the good advice! I will check out the dyno program. It sounds like a great idea. I think a good plan is better than part swapping until you get a set up you like $$$$$$!! Now you brought up a interesting point. Holley carbs....HMMMMM takes me back to the day I got stranded with a locked up Holley carb. I had always heard they were not reliable, but never expereinced it myself. A fairly new Holley, on a 350HP SBC was awesome. My 63 SS Impala 4 speed was awesome, until I got stranded at a CITGO gas-n-go. I was told my float got hung up. Long story short, I swear I saw everyone I ever knew that afternoon. My mega cool Chevy, BROKE DOWN. I had to tow it home (6 blocks). Funny, if you smack a Holley with a mallet long & and hard enough it will get unstuck! So, pardon me if I am not to hip to the Holley deal. It is like dating your first crazy chick, you don't forget and you don't do it again!!!! lol

Dlo3575

What about Dyno-Sim? Google it and see if this is what you are talking about. I saw one on EBay for $19.

Dlo3575

BuckNeccid

I'm not sure on your crank, I know someone can run the numbers and tell, I always went by the balancer.

And I didn't mean a Holley carb, the Pro Jection system is a fully tunable fuel injection set up. Throttle body, 4 bbl look. I was going to put it on mine, till I realized the one I have is a 650, and I don't think it would deliver enough fuel. Gonna go with a tri power on the 55, so that leaves this sitting on the shelf for right now.

It looks like the Dyno Sim would work, I've never used it, I used to use Mr Gasket's Desk top Dyno, but that's been a few years ago. Looks like the Dyno Sim actually has a few more options than the version I was using. If you get it, try a stock combination you already know the HP rating on (Like a 375 horse 327) to make sure it's giving accurate results. I always used the specs for as close to I could get to a 375 HP 440

BuckNeccid

So how's the Charger going? Been a year since we heard from you and just wanted to see if you're still happy and enthused

Dlo3575

I have posted under the suspension and motor topics. I had some fairly active posts in regards to the LCA's and pivot bushing removal tools. I uploaded several pictures.

I sent all my suspension parts and K member to be blasted and powder coated. They turned out real nice. I also dropped off the drum and brake parts to be blasted and powder coated as well. i am suppose to pick up next week and start assembly. I will post pictures when we pick it all up and as the build progresses......

Best regards,

D. Lee Herrera