Small block stroker?!
02-03-2009, 11:59 AM
#1
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Small block stroker?!
Been thinking on the 4" crank for a while......any help with my research on this idea would be GRATE!
For those that haven't read my intro section, heres the specs on my Car.
OK so it's time to start collecting part for my next eng build............1st build is kinda mild............this one, i would like to build enough power to run at the vary least , High 12's(@4,400 Foot Elevation and a car that weight is 3810 w/Driver)
I know i could kill 5 to 6 tenths off my time if i strip the car.......But i just cant do that!
In my mind that means twisting the little short stroked 340 around 7,200 + or put a 4"crank in it, and spin it around 5,500 rpm.
I have enjoyed, the 11 year i got out of my first build.......But the first one was basic stock with a cam and a converter. the parts really worked together well.
I know i could go with a cast 4" crank and be fine with what i want to do.
But, it Will be forged for a lot of reason.
the stroker will be a lot easer on valve train parts. and may be cheaper in the long run?????????
For those that have gone down this road, would i be wise to have my X Heads ported or go to the eddlebrock head or one of the MPP ones like the Commando, or w2 W5????????.
And sadly i know i have to give up on my little 600 Holley
Have a 850 Demon to replace it with.
So what pitfall should i avoid before i get my self in to deep to climb out
For those that haven't read my intro section, heres the specs on my Car.
Hmmm my ride.......Its a 70 Barracuda 318 auto Gran Coupe. owned it since 1989.
Add-ons..... include a .020 over bored 340 (68) single plain intake, 600 cfm Holley carb (383 original Holley carb "6160") elect ign conversion,
stock TRW 10.5 pistons(actual compression came out to be 9.4:1
)
474/280 mpp cam.(on the 2nt one of them) eng is 11 year old now,Been race many a year in the sportsman class.
904 replace with a built 727 with a cheetah reverse manual shift valve body. 2800 Stall converter.
8-3/4....Original 2.76 opens, went to 3.23 opens, to 3.91 poss, to currant 4.56 poss.
10" slicks, Super Stock Springs, Frame connectors (still in my garage
)
Rally dash missing when i buy it, but has the slap stick (useless with a Reverse Manual shift valve body!!!!!!!
takes some training of the mind to shift it backward........will not let any body drive it because of that.
Runs low 14s at 4,400 Foot Elevation
Add-ons..... include a .020 over bored 340 (68) single plain intake, 600 cfm Holley carb (383 original Holley carb "6160") elect ign conversion,
stock TRW 10.5 pistons(actual compression came out to be 9.4:1
)474/280 mpp cam.(on the 2nt one of them) eng is 11 year old now,Been race many a year in the sportsman class.
904 replace with a built 727 with a cheetah reverse manual shift valve body. 2800 Stall converter.
8-3/4....Original 2.76 opens, went to 3.23 opens, to 3.91 poss, to currant 4.56 poss.
10" slicks, Super Stock Springs, Frame connectors (still in my garage
)Rally dash missing when i buy it, but has the slap stick (useless with a Reverse Manual shift valve body!!!!!!!
takes some training of the mind to shift it backward........will not let any body drive it because of that.
Runs low 14s at 4,400 Foot Elevation
I know i could kill 5 to 6 tenths off my time if i strip the car.......But i just cant do that!
In my mind that means twisting the little short stroked 340 around 7,200 + or put a 4"crank in it, and spin it around 5,500 rpm.
I have enjoyed, the 11 year i got out of my first build.......But the first one was basic stock with a cam and a converter. the parts really worked together well.
I know i could go with a cast 4" crank and be fine with what i want to do.
But, it Will be forged for a lot of reason.
the stroker will be a lot easer on valve train parts. and may be cheaper in the long run?????????
For those that have gone down this road, would i be wise to have my X Heads ported or go to the eddlebrock head or one of the MPP ones like the Commando, or w2 W5????????.
And sadly i know i have to give up on my little 600 Holley
Have a 850 Demon to replace it with.
So what pitfall should i avoid before i get my self in to deep to climb out
02-04-2009, 11:27 AM
#3
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Check out 440 source on the net, they have rotating assemblies, you may get some insight there.
sorry about the 440 source info, the smallest they do is 383.
sorry about the 440 source info, the smallest they do is 383.
Last edited by Polaradude; 02-04-2009 at 11:59 AM. Reason: wrong info
02-04-2009, 11:29 AM
#4
Admin
see how much it will cost you altogether to do the stroker kit and upgrade your tranny (cuz your going to need to build it a little stronger) and compair that to a big block and tranny combo that you can do a mild build on and get the same results and still have plenty of room to build and go faster if you want. Take into consideration that you'll get some money back for the 340/727 combo.
02-04-2009, 12:12 PM
#6
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Thanks you all for you opinions, they are all wellcome........even tho i may not fallow all of them............Not giving up on stroker idea just yet.
really like the sleeper affect it would have.
Still searching for more date and info.
If any on has a link to a good article on it or any thing like that, I would love to go check it out...........not the best with the google search button.......But have found some info, any you guys my have to offer would be grate also
The 440 source didn't bring any thing up for me..............
really like the sleeper affect it would have.
Still searching for more date and info.
If any on has a link to a good article on it or any thing like that, I would love to go check it out...........not the best with the google search button.......But have found some info, any you guys my have to offer would be grate also
The 440 source didn't bring any thing up for me..............
02-04-2009, 12:22 PM
#7
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hughesengines.com sorry again about the 440 source.
mancini also sells 318 stroker kits
mancini also sells 318 stroker kits
Last edited by Polaradude; 02-04-2009 at 01:53 PM. Reason: more info
02-04-2009, 05:07 PM
#8
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Cool thanks for the links will go check then both out.
the 4" stroker crank will go in my 340 or i have a 72 360 out of a truck that will more then likely be the donor for this project........But once i by the crank, I'm committed to one or the other...........still trying to decide which way to go first.
02-04-2009, 05:47 PM
#9
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Hughes don't have much there for the small block.............
But MANCINI RACIING Forged crank stroker kit from $2,195 what a good price!!!!
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/caroas.html
But MANCINI RACIING Forged crank stroker kit from $2,195 what a good price!!!!
http://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/caroas.html
02-05-2009, 05:52 AM
#13
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Thanks 66sportfury:
also checkout www.campbellenterprises.com
.......but don't say what brand of crank they us.......Vary nice site thohttp://chucker54.stores.yahoo.net/caroas.html
02-05-2009, 08:09 PM
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I found the Article on the 600 HP 360 stroker...........but when you click on it..............It said that the link is or was broken
there is several pic of the build, but every one i clicked on....... got me no Were!
Thanks for all the links and ideas. Sure do appreciate them!
there is several pic of the build, but every one i clicked on....... got me no Were!
Thanks for all the links and ideas. Sure do appreciate them!
02-06-2009, 06:00 AM
#16
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Its a street/stripe car...........but sence i haven't licence it for the street in years and i plan on adding a lot more HP (enough for 12's in the 1/4 mile)....................
Ya it heading down that road of a full race car.............But yet I can't gut it and make it a full race car.
Pretty sure that i will be using my 360 block for this stroker.
will i need better flowing heads (I have X head with the ports clean up small "stem" valve in my 340 now.
If this stroker only pulled to 5000 i would be happy.........6000 would be better but not if it took away from the bottom end........thinking on a 3-3500 stall................??
Ya it heading down that road of a full race car.............But yet I can't gut it and make it a full race car.
Pretty sure that i will be using my 360 block for this stroker.
will i need better flowing heads (I have X head with the ports clean up small "stem" valve in my 340 now.
If this stroker only pulled to 5000 i would be happy.........6000 would be better but not if it took away from the bottom end........thinking on a 3-3500 stall................??
02-06-2009, 12:12 PM
#17
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stalls are a tricky thing. i would agree with you on the stall. but cant tell you for sure theres to manny variables to tell you. i picked out my own stallTQ and wasnt happy at all. try this web site they got great prices and they will be more help on a converter. www.accperformance.com
02-06-2009, 02:31 PM
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I found the Article on the 600 HP 360 stroker...........but when you click on it..............It said that the link is or was broken
there is several pic of the build, but every one i clicked on....... got me no Were!
Thanks for all the links and ideas. Sure do appreciate them!
there is several pic of the build, but every one i clicked on....... got me no Were!
Thanks for all the links and ideas. Sure do appreciate them!
Sorry, no it not a stroker
It a R3 (340 race block) block W9 head and 600+ lift roller cam that turn 7000 rpm and run an 91 octane3.31 stroke not 4.00" stroker crank.........real interesting article just the same........I will see if i can make the like work.........
They are pulilng the motor down to put 13.5 :1 compression and even a bigger cam Threre goal was to make 2 hp per each Cubic inch...........I thing they will make it!!!!
Just incase your interested VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV
http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/t..._hp/index.html
02-06-2009, 02:39 PM
#19
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stalls are a tricky thing. i would agree with you on the stall. but cant tell you for sure theres to manny variables to tell you. i picked out my own stallTQ and wasnt happy at all. try this web site they got great prices and they will be more help on a converter. www.accperformance.com
Thanks for the link. Love then all, thanks guys
I will probably need all my motor spec's, figured out, before i could get too serious about a converter..............beside i want to see how quickly i can stretch my current 2800 stall with a long stroke agence it.
Was sappiest to have all the neat stuff in it like an anti- ballooning plate needle bearing.......exc....
02-17-2009, 07:30 PM
#20
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Sent e-mail to sever stoker kit mention above.....
this is what Manciniracing said:
What I'm wonder here is,......is 9.600" the from factory spec or do you have to "blue print" (Deck the block) to get to the 9.600????
I think i will shoot for compression around the 11-11.5 range.
MPP has a "A" replacement head that is 65cc or a W2 Iron head that is 65cc or maybe the Commando Aluminum head that is 50cc.......Or maybe an Eddy head......They are Alu also, Right?
this is what Manciniracing said:
The bore sizes for our Diamond pistons are shelf +.030 / +.060. They can be had in .040 for an additional $40. They are offered in Flat top or Dish.
The Flat top gives 10.7 to 1 @ 65cc
The Dish gives 9.5 to 1 @ 65 cc
These are using a std composite .039 thk gskt. Generally at .018 in the hole on a 9.600 deck.
I think i will shoot for compression around the 11-11.5 range.
MPP has a "A" replacement head that is 65cc or a W2 Iron head that is 65cc or maybe the Commando Aluminum head that is 50cc.......Or maybe an Eddy head......They are Alu also, Right?
02-22-2009, 12:45 AM
#22
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I'm starting to lean toward having my Stock J head opened up to a 2.02.....Mybe a 2.05 intake valve and having the full porting done along with a rebuild.
Should flow at-least as well as any of the after market heads.......at least in non ported form..........and i already have the J heads.............Would have to have then shaved down to get some decent compression tho.....
Should flow at-least as well as any of the after market heads.......at least in non ported form..........and i already have the J heads.............Would have to have then shaved down to get some decent compression tho.....
02-22-2009, 01:15 AM
#23
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J's are 1.88 stock exh 1.60. 2.02 yeah i could see but unlike stock they left the exh at 1.60???? why?if you open the intake you need to open the exh also! am i wrong? carefull after 2.05 theres not much room left. 2.08 is the most you can go with 1.60 exh. you could opt for a cam with longer exh duration. and in a small block id look for a cam with a tight center line. to aid in quick revs
02-22-2009, 03:03 AM
#24
Admin
You can only flow in as much as you can flow out.
If your not flowing out what you flowed in, your not going to get that much more in there and your only going to be hurting yourself.
If your not flowing out what you flowed in, your not going to get that much more in there and your only going to be hurting yourself.
02-22-2009, 10:38 AM
#25
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What my plan is, at this point, is J head, 2.02 intake valve cut in, Keeping the 1.60 ext diameter, small stem 11/32, pro port job, Intake, exh, and combustion chambers.
Should flow as good or better then the as cast heads( out of the box) such as MPP large port Commando head, Edelbrock RPM heads, Econo W2 or Indy 360-1 exc.
I figure, what it will cost to buy any of these heads, i can have my J heads ported and rebuild.........don't know? but have a E-Mail into a top notch porting facility that is also close to me.
Hopefully this project is not to small for them. they are more into the w7-8-9 heads(top dollar full on race head)
02-26-2009, 10:19 PM
#26
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Well, sent 2 E-mails to "Chapmanracinghead"............didn't even get a HI or nothing.......... which is sad, as there only about a hour a way. So, who do you guys recommend for a top notch Know what they are doing head porting shop................
I have a Dyno sim and Drag sim program, that i have been doing a lot of comparisons with.
With a .555-310 flat tappet cam and heads with flow rating is the 260 CFM range, i have found that a 408 stroker will want to spin in the 7500 to 7800 RPM range.....Which i felt was kind hi for 4.00" stroker. so i sent a Couple more E-Mail to see if 7500 was safe and if not what i could do to make it safe.
Dave from campbellenterprises rights this:
So i sent him another e-mail searching for the stroker RPM limit. asking him if it would Hold up to 8000 RPM and he wrote back:
That was vary interesting to me! Thing, I'm going that route, even if i don't twist it that high.........................................
I have a Dyno sim and Drag sim program, that i have been doing a lot of comparisons with.
With a .555-310 flat tappet cam and heads with flow rating is the 260 CFM range, i have found that a 408 stroker will want to spin in the 7500 to 7800 RPM range.....Which i felt was kind hi for 4.00" stroker. so i sent a Couple more E-Mail to see if 7500 was safe and if not what i could do to make it safe.
Dave from campbellenterprises rights this:
no problem .. this is a forged kit
So i sent him another e-mail searching for the stroker RPM limit. asking him if it would Hold up to 8000 RPM and he wrote back:
as long as everything is put together right, and the engine is tuned properly, should be no problem.
I would recommend a bolt upgrade to the arp2000
the pistons included would be the weakest link in that assembly. For not much more we could put together a K1 / Wiseco combo that would be even stronger
I would recommend a bolt upgrade to the arp2000
the pistons included would be the weakest link in that assembly. For not much more we could put together a K1 / Wiseco combo that would be even stronger
That was vary interesting to me! Thing, I'm going that route, even if i don't twist it that high.........................................
02-27-2009, 06:16 AM
#28
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Ya i now, I'm just a little bit paranoid, and want to make sure it better then i will ever us it for.
When i built my 340, i build it to run at 7500 all day long......................Then installed .420 cam in it.........
of course that was when it was my Only Daily Driver.
03-04-2009, 09:36 AM
#29
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Posted this on another site, but though Ya migh injoy it as well.
somthing to make say say Hmmmmm LOL
somthing to make say say Hmmmmm LOL
Was looking at the air flow number from the link above...............this one
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/p...=&partid=23191
and pulled the 2.02 J full port head air flow #### off of Shady Dells site http://www.shadydellspeedshop.com/jhead.htm.............and decided to do a little experiment.........................
Using my Dyno Sim, and then exporting these head as engs, in to my Drag Sim program, I Deside to compare the Iron Ram, ported 2.02, Iron Ram 2.055 and the J 2.02 full porting job from Shady Dell
All the setting for each eng was the same, except the different heads.
The important info of these 3 engs.
360 stroker (408) 11.0:1 compression and the cam was a MPP .474/280 Hyd.
After the motor was build, i sent it the Drag Sim and installed it in.......well ....My car.
(set spec up similar to my Cuda)
The thing you need to know here, is its a 3800 pound car, 3500 stall, and 4.56 gears.
Note: the E.T. is not what is important, the comparison between them is what matters. Don'T get stuck on the actual numbers
Iron Ram 2.02 ported head .............E.T./ 12.53@ 107.4
Iron Ran 2.055 full boogie porting.....E.T./ 12.57@ 107.0
J head w 2.02 full porting................E.T./ 12.76@ 104.4
I thru the J spec in the mix,,,,,, Just because, that's the route i will probably go(most cost effective for me)
Any ways, why i wrote all of this is,........ I found it vary interesting that a head that was ported to run a .600 lift cam, ran so close 2.02 Iron Ram head.
I new that the big valve/ ported head would be slower with my 3500 Stall.......... and small cam......but i real though it would be way slower.......especially in the 60" times.
1.788(60") for the 2.055, compared to a 1.781(60") for the 2.02 Iron head
My first head i ever ported was a 360 head that i droped a valve in(long story
) and had to have hardened seat put in the intake, and ext. to save the head. Mind you, this was and still is a 1.88 intake valve, Just has hardened seats and this big ski jump in the bowl area after the seat was installed.
by the time i had ground the ski jump out of the bowl area, from both intake and exh valves,,,,,then match them Hug bowls to the other 14 Bowl/ports................
well, lets just say i STILL can't believe i didn't find water before i was done.
Well the head raise my RPM level from 5800 to 7200 RPM (nothing else was changed on the eng)
The problem was that my 60" time Stunk SO Bad, that i ran a Full Sec slower(was running 14.5's at the time, and my new porting slowed me to the mid 15's).......I was expecting a simmer problem with the .600 lift capable head above.
Just figure some might find this interesting as well.............................
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/p...=&partid=23191
and pulled the 2.02 J full port head air flow #### off of Shady Dells site http://www.shadydellspeedshop.com/jhead.htm.............and decided to do a little experiment.........................
Using my Dyno Sim, and then exporting these head as engs, in to my Drag Sim program, I Deside to compare the Iron Ram, ported 2.02, Iron Ram 2.055 and the J 2.02 full porting job from Shady Dell
All the setting for each eng was the same, except the different heads.
The important info of these 3 engs.
360 stroker (408) 11.0:1 compression and the cam was a MPP .474/280 Hyd.
After the motor was build, i sent it the Drag Sim and installed it in.......well ....My car.
(set spec up similar to my Cuda)The thing you need to know here, is its a 3800 pound car, 3500 stall, and 4.56 gears.
Note: the E.T. is not what is important, the comparison between them is what matters. Don'T get stuck on the actual numbers
Iron Ram 2.02 ported head .............E.T./ 12.53@ 107.4
Iron Ran 2.055 full boogie porting.....E.T./ 12.57@ 107.0
J head w 2.02 full porting................E.T./ 12.76@ 104.4
I thru the J spec in the mix,,,,,, Just because, that's the route i will probably go(most cost effective for me)
Any ways, why i wrote all of this is,........ I found it vary interesting that a head that was ported to run a .600 lift cam, ran so close 2.02 Iron Ram head.
I new that the big valve/ ported head would be slower with my 3500 Stall.......... and small cam......but i real though it would be way slower.......especially in the 60" times.
1.788(60") for the 2.055, compared to a 1.781(60") for the 2.02 Iron head
My first head i ever ported was a 360 head that i droped a valve in(long story
) and had to have hardened seat put in the intake, and ext. to save the head. Mind you, this was and still is a 1.88 intake valve, Just has hardened seats and this big ski jump in the bowl area after the seat was installed.by the time i had ground the ski jump out of the bowl area, from both intake and exh valves,,,,,then match them Hug bowls to the other 14 Bowl/ports................
well, lets just say i STILL can't believe i didn't find water before i was done.
Well the head raise my RPM level from 5800 to 7200 RPM (nothing else was changed on the eng)
The problem was that my 60" time Stunk SO Bad, that i ran a Full Sec slower(was running 14.5's at the time, and my new porting slowed me to the mid 15's).......I was expecting a simmer problem with the .600 lift capable head above.
Just figure some might find this interesting as well.............................
