Hey all,

I bought a 69 GTX recently and I want to go through the motor. The condition of the motor is pretty sad, from peeling paint to leaks from every gasketed connection. The previous owner bought the car early 2001 and added a MSD 6AL new rear end service including a new balanced driveshaft. Other than that, it has barley been driven. The owner before had kept a reciepts and wrote down a basic description what was done.
My plan was to initially pull the motor and replace all the gaskets and paint the motor and clean up the engine compartment. But why just stop there right? listed below is a list of modifications that the x2 previous owner wrote down

*440*
Edelbrock TM7 Intake
484 duration 284 lift <--sounds like the numbers are backwards. maybe mopar purplecam? only cam close to the specs
67' 915 heads <-decked but doesn't know how much
1-3/4" hooker comp headers
Guessed the compression 9.5 or 10:1.. ( lol ugh )
750 zinc Holley carb
MSD 6AL Ignition system
8-3/4" Rear end with 4:10 gear
**no idea on the torque converter**

Thats all I got, so I have been checking out multiple fourms on 440 builds and I kept comming across the Edelbrock / 440 source head DEBATE. Yeah I know, I'm not going there..don't worry. I have made my decision and going with the edelbrocks 84cc version. I found the top-end kit edelbrock has including the intake/cam/lifters/heads/timing chain and all the fasteners and gaskets I would need. for the $2,199.99 is seems like a no brainer....but no one is using the cam supplied with the kit? does anyone have and insight they can give me on that cam? is it too mild or what? I been trying to find a youtube video or a sound file on that cam to hear what it sounds like and been striking out.

My goal is to make 10:5 or even 11:1 mixing some turbo blue (119 octane) without getting detonation. I'm concerned that buying the kit and going back on compression. And I know I dont know what I really got until I tear it down, but im looking for opinions and recommendations on the internals. Im not looking to shoot for 600hp so buying forged pistons / rods / caps / roller rocker cam.. you know that whole insane package would be a waste of money. I had a turbo car that i threw in 20k in the motor and never utilized the full potential. Drivability was like a on / off switch 0-30lbs of boost with a triple plate clutch crusing down the street was pretty dumb, I have been there and done that

I have a friend of mine who builds corvette motors, Mopar's isn't really his thing. but he owes me a favor so the labor is free. Ideally what I would like to do is get a .30 over piston kit, polish the crank, slap in some new bearings and button the bottom end up. Realistic hp number would be 500hp, which im not sure if its possible with the porting on the edelbrock heads.


I tried calling Mancini Racing out of michigan (where I'm from) and asked him a few questions, I must of called this GUY up during his lunch break. The guy just said leave it alone, and blew me off. I'm kind of frustrated about that, I obviously dont have the knowledge and looking for help.

So if anyone wants to give me some advice or tell me to just leave it alone and paint it... that cool too

Attached are a few pics of the motor and the car..

 

I would run the 915 heads if they are in good shape. Have a machine shop put in harden exhaust seats an what ever else maybe needed. Keep the comp. at or under 9.8 and scrap the idea of mixing gas, Thats a waste of money. I dont like e-brock cams or purple shafts. Spend the money for some good adjustable rockers. A good engine balance job is money well spent.

 

Very nice car. You have a HP block with a maltice cross. The cross means that from the factory it had an undesized crank on the mains and maybe the rods. Welcome aboard.

PS. Drop the pan check everything. New rear main seal, new pan gasket. Pull the water pump housing and timeing cover. Inspect the chain and replace if needed, new timing cover seal and gasket, new water pump gasket. Pull the valve covers and check the valve train. No problems, put some new valve cover gaskets and drive it.

 

Thanks.. I was reading up on the cross a few days ago, when I order the bearings do I have to specifiy anything or is it just in the crank and maybe the rods?

 

Welcome!

I for one would call up Comp Cam, tell them exactly what you are building and have them recommend a cam. I've used an Edlebrock cam in the past and did not like the results, same power as the stock cam (this was in a 1974 Jeep J10 pickup with an AMC 360).

 

edel cams are quite mild
get a lunati cam
PURPLE HORONET you said mixing gas was a waste what about adding nitro-methane to the mix? Think they use to call it tipping the can...

 

welcome to the forum nice X

 

Welcome, That is a sweet find. Build it the way you want. I for one like Mopar Purple cams as did Carroll Shelby they grind there cams to run the best in Mopars. You just have to know what you want. Do research you will get to many oppinions here and if you mix the results of what is said you'll have a car that runs/(or not at all) like sh-t...

 

Welcome to the forum.... Nice find for sure!!!! Be sure to check out the Mopar of the Month contest.....

 

My comment of a waste of money was pointed to his comment

so buying forged pistons / rods / caps / roller rocker cam.. you know that whole insane package would be a waste of money

Why jack the comp. on a street car and not run good parts, then turn around and run race fuel. To me cutting corners to run race fuel makes no sense.

 

Sorry but your wrong. If he pulls the engine apart he will find the crank will probably not be undersized at all.

The maltese cross is used to specify that the block is high nickle content. This also means the cylinders turned to chrome and have very little wear and resistance.

Maltese cross with an X beside it would be undersized bearings.

Looking at the pictures again I do wonder why the cross is in the wrong spot usually these are separate from the cubic inch either in the lower or upper right hand corner. It is also an F block which I believe is for a 1970 car.

The placement of the cross puzzles me as I have seen a number of these over the years. I also know the debate over the meaning of the cross has lasted just as long with either side providing statements specifying what it means from former Chrysler engine builders at the factory.

I wonder if the reason for the debate has roots in the factory that made them at the time. There is more than one factory and they didn't all have the same policy's regarding the stamping either. Going by the Maltese meaning undersize crank is blown out of the water when one looks at the Hemis of the time that all had the maltese cross stamped on them for high nickle content.

 

Wow... You have all good problems!! Good parts. Sweet ride and now for some power.

The high comp, super c, turbo etc... they all rock! But throw in a hot day, crap gas, no where to really spool it up and "blah".. Never mind a 2000 mile road trip..

If it were I:

Since machine work is free:
Pull the rotating assembly to see what you have bore and stroke wise. If its all good, print it and use a good bearing with clearances for durability.

Use the 440 heads. As cast will get you 270-290 on the intake side. That get you to 500 and then some but gives you more flexibility in cam selection. You wont have to stretch the head flow with duration to make power.

If bores are good reuse the piston and you can work with heads and deck height to get CR to street levels for pump gas premium. If you need a piston for an overbore select for proper compression at that time.

Keep your intake. Roller camshaft, good header and dual 3 inch pipes.

Once you have a gear, tire OD and trans top gear ratio just cam accordingly.

 

For the few extra hundred bucks I'm going to go with forged pistons.

I see where your comming from. From my past experience I have spent a ton of money overbuilding a motor. Shooting for a 11:1 (tops) compression without any forced induction, I don't think it's asking too much from the crank and valvetrain. Even if I ran straight race gas I'm just making sure I don't have Detonation. If I'm just wasting money on the fuel and not gaining any power from 9:5 to 11:1 compression and due to the maximum flow characteristics in the heads, I would just keep the same compression and build a motor on 93octane. So theres another question I have.

 

jacilynn_s, Yes your right on the F code on the motor. I specifically took that pic too see who was going to hit it first on the F code. The only thing that I can come up with is the stock motor was blown very early in the cars life. Maybe it was a factory replacement motor? When I checked the casting numbers on the block and it was cast 10/29/69. There isn't a Vin stamped on the passenger side of the motor right above the oil pan. Which bummed me out a little, would of been pretty cool having a matching block with the car.

For the maltese cross, I'm sure this will spark up a whole new conversation on this topic. So your saying the location is odd and it represents a high nickel content block. Should I get the payday and scrap the motor and buy a hemi crate motor with my winnings from the scrap metal yard? I WISH!

you were saying that the cylinders chrome over and show very little wear and resistance. Is there any disadvantages with the ✠ ? or is it a good/great thing?

 

I drive everything I own atleast anywhere from 10min to a hour away. So race gas is a waste to me for street use. Yes more power comes from comp. I just feel if your not dragging it at the track why bother with race fuel. Plus if you ever wanted to sell it most people do not want a high com. engine for the street.

 

Usually the cross is in the far corner past the hp or near the plate. I know those are high nickle blocks.

Little wear means less of a need to bore over. I did a maltess block that came out of an imperal with 100000 miles and it's max wear on one cylinder was like 0.007 and min was 0.004. Just put new rings on the stock pistons as there was no need to bore over at all. Ring gap was well withing specs.

Less piston drag = more hp. About 10 hp per cylinder actually. The chromed cylinders also provide a better seal for the rings as even worn rings tend to be sharp still. Normal engines the rings edges are fairly smooth but not sharp.

So yes you MAY have a really good block with lots of hp potential. Like I said the cross is in an unusual place so I'm not sure how this one is.

If it was a factory warranty replacement it would have a W stamped on it. Chances are it was a dealer option install if there is no serial stamped on the underside near the passenger mount.

The undersized crank journals usually have an X stamped beside the cross or just an X period. Only way to tell for sure is to open up the engine and look. If the bearings are all normal with no 0.010 on the underside of them its a high nickle block.

 

There has been a quiet movement over the last couple years that I see gaining a little speed.

Last couple builds I participated in leaned towards street use / severe duty. Meaning: The owner said, I want HP but not so much that it effects drivabilty. They didn't want any hot weather issues or exotic stuff that they couldnt get over the counter. So upgraded brakes came from different makes / not nascar stuff. Pistons were stocked items. Cams didn't have smack the stem ramp angles, no electric water pumps, good tires, radiators that were options from tow packages, oil cooler etc....

I met with a "One Lapper's" and was surprised at how many cars were built pretty close to this philosophy and finished and even placed.

Like PURPLE HORNET, I drive my stuff. If its a trailer / track car I dont, and build for that purpose. But if its street car I build them now for 3000 miles between service.

 

Yea true that...unless your racing every where it's a unnecessary cost.
The average vehicle i ever ran on the street always used the oem rotating assemblies
most mods have been the intake side of the motor.
And that with as many oem parts.
i know a guy who picked up a mid 90s montss and dropped over $3k into that 350 and in the end my 318 w/less than $1k investment, 4-door diplomat was faster.

 

This has been my philosophy from my high school day's
we learned early on that all the fancy racing parts really didn't make you any faster just made you spend more.
Most motor heads in high don't have tons of , but a few had fathers with garages who would put big bucks into them and in the end it wasn't any faster than a "poor boys" ride.
my brother picked up a 70 RR. 383 used for $1200. w/90,k+ miles and raced a chevell w/427 COPO 10,k motor that the kid's father built him.
And even with a sticking secondary air valve he managed to hold him to a fender.

 

Wow! Thanks for the better explaination,

I was looking into a engine rebuild kit on the .30 over side.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fem-csmhp816-300

If I dont have to bore it out, ill get the .000 kit

The approximate compression ratio 10.34:1 with a 88cc head <--from summit . What if I went with a 84cc head.. would my compression be 10.6 to 10.7? using the race fuel isnt a big deal to me. In Detroit Race fuel is very common, its like 2 to every 10 stations you drive by.
Would I run into a clearance issue with the valves? I'm pretty sure I'm going to stick with the .484 cam. but could i go to a +.500 lift? I have been reading that the edelbrock heads really come alive past .500. what would you recommend?