Howdy - me again...

I did lifter/rocker job on Bank 2 - wasn't easy but got 'er done. Still had tick, came bank to do Bank 1... Job went smooth until time came to put the phasers back on to the cams.
I fought with the phasers for an hour and almost had them both on but not flush, I went to slightly back one of them out to try to get more leverage - the entire thing rotated. Both phasers were pushed out, the plastic wedge tool between the phasers tensioning them together popped out, at least one of the cams rotated back, and the CHAIN on the phasers moved clockwise! Oh - and the plastic J-shaped chain tensioner tool seems to have gotten scrapped and a piece (or shavings) of plastic have fallen in

Bank 1 - current state


Bank 2 - Shows we are either; no longer at TDC or seeing as the paint marks are seemingly still were they should be maybe I disassembled Bank 1 without being at proper TDC?


J-Shaped chain tensioner tool


I looked down in the valley with a borescope and did not immediately see anything, I will look more once the phasers are back on and I have more room to get in there.....

I have no idea how to troubleshoot or what my next move is.. I see this thread: https://www.chryslerminivan.net/thre...hasers.176147/
- notably the post by @dandaman - should I try this?

What I don't understand though. Referencing Bank 1 picture - the two yellow marks are where the phaser connects with the chain the top top part. 12 links between them. As you can see, both marks are still fully accessible and so Id believe I can easily set the phasers to where they should be on the chain. As far matching the cams with the phasers and chain - I have paint marks as well but there are notches where the phasers meet the cams, does this not mean it can ONLY go in one way and thus I'd still be in time?

 

Wish I could help you but then I’m kind of glad I can’t, the only overhead cam engine I have ever worked on is a 1965 Jeep Tornado six.

someone will come along and give you some advice.
good luck with your project

 

I thought there where cam lock plate tools to keep the cams in place when installing the Phasers?
Not sure ??? But dont you hang the chains on the Phasers after you install them?

I dont know, I have not done any of them... Sorry..

 

There are tools but they are plastic and for Bank 1 there is only a wedge/tension tool it does not truly lock it and so if you are not careful or make a wrong move things can slip, which is what has happened to me.

Looks like I'm doing a timing chain job

 

After doing a little poking around and looking at the pictures you took...... It looks like maybe you didn't set the engine on number one top dead center before you started?
At that point you would have seen what looked like 2 blue markers and 1 gold marker?
Also With the front cover off of the engine, you would have been able to verify that all the timing marks had lined up, before loosing and collapsing the Hydraulic tensioners?

I suppose now, You have to remove the cover.... Loosen The camshafts so that you do not bend the valves, if it hasn't already..... Yikes... Scary..

 

I agree - I do not think I was at proper TDC which (I believe) gave me extra tension which is why I had the slip and where I am now...
So why did I not set to TDC? Well the wedge for the phasers was not fitting at TDC - so I went slightly retarded/advanced (cant remember) to get that wedge to go into place.... well turns out this is where I started to screw up. What I didn't realize is this is a common occurance on Bank 1 and you have to grab the intake cam and rotate as you wedge the phasers:
My second mess up was after the chain rotated I removed the tensioner tool to inspect for damage - DO NOT DO THIS!!!! This is where I royally fudged up, I am fairly certain the tensioner has over-extended or "came out of bore" and is applying excess tension on the chain.




I'm choosing to take this as a happy accident - the universe is telling me I need to replace the guides and tensioners - engine has 150k on it.
I have ordered a more complete timing kit
Which includes a crank pulling tool and two cam holding tools, but I have no idea how to use those cam locking tools, I haven't seen any documentation online of people using them. I've also found this timing cover removal guide on another public forum - would anyone have official
instructions/diagrams for removing/install guides, tensioners, and chain?

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/i14ai...=jskvfku3&dl=0


Also - I pulled the lower intake manifold which gives direct access to the valves - just shine a bright light into the runners - I have verified none of them are bent!

 

I'm trying to get the crank bolt off - went to my local Harbor Freight and bought this https://www.harborfreight.com/85-amp..._source=google

Even with 1000 ft/lb of torque the bolt did not come loose 0.0
I ordered the harmonic balancer locking tool for breaking/torquing the bolt- so I will try with a breaker bar tomorrow - can you offer any advice, is 1000 ft/lbs not enough?

 

Make sure it is not reverse thread ?????

 

Lock Tight isn’t involved is it?

 

Hello friends, got an update on the progress...

So from further research it turns out I wasn't getting that Bank 1 phaser into place at TDC because the one or both of the phasers are worn!!!

So bam - there it is - truly a blessing in disguise imo - a lot of work and time investment certainly but I am gaining newfound knowledge and replacing many parts.
These engines have been seen to go to 300-400k+ miles in the trucks/vans if well taken care of, maybe I can get the same longevity out of mine.

As for the crank bolt - Harbor Freight boxing was false advertising lol, the box says "1000+ ft/lbs of bolt breaking torque" but when you look the same item up online it says 300 ft/lbs.
So I returned that and grabbed a Kobalt wrench on sale (I already have a lot of Kobalt - good tools) https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-24-v...ded/5013201381
650 ft/lbs on that one, did the job did not even need the flywheel locking tool.

I am taking the timing cover bolts out now... speaking of loctite though, during re-install, would you loctite any of the bolts?
Oh, also, I am reading in some places that bolt is "torque to yield" and should be replaced - do you guys agree, if so, are any of these other bolts I should also change?

 

Well here is why the chain had extra tension, I was wrong, the tensioner did not overextend. Somehow the chain got all wrapped up... I feel like I could had fixed it by rotating the crank, either way doing a complete overhaul on the engine now

 

I’ve heard that you are good at what you do when you can fix your own mistakes.

 

What do you think about re-using the harmonic balancer bolt?

 

What size is it and what does the book say?

 

@Iowan @RacerHog Well...I got the new timing kit on and it wont turn over! A few degrees after (the circular TDC mark on crank compared to the line on the case) I am met with great resistance! As far as I can tell; all my timing marks line up and the valves look good/un-bent. Also- after being disassembled for nearly a week now - it seems all my lifters are super squishy now despite some being brand new!?

Any idea what I'm doing wrong? Video attached.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/pbi1f...=v6c6l2im&dl=0

Also, when reviewing the first video, it looks like the chain may be off on Bank 2 - here is an additional video - this shows the chain to be (what looks like) good order on Bank 2.
Video 2: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/3f1zz...=r3iqrnmu&dl=0

Additional Question:
I am using an Amazon timing kit and it includes this piece

I am not sure what this is for? The kit seems to fit Rams, Jeeps, etc - is this piece used for those engines but not the 2013 200? Can't seem to figure out what it is and if I need it.

 

I believe that motor is an interference fit so unless you have it timed correctly you will not be able to rotate the crankshaft. What happens is the valves hit the pistons so don’t force it to rotate! I believe you will need to lift the cams and then set the crankshaft to zero degrees then install the cams at zero or whatever the book says. But do not force it to rotate!

 

I had purchased this timing kit:
It is affordable and I saw it had majority good reviews, Well, I spent the entire day disassembling and re-installing/timing again. Here is what I did different this time...

I inspected the parts from the kit more closely and noticed some differences;

• The 3 gear sprocket (OEM) has oil valleys where as the cheap Chinese one does not
• The chains "felt different" not sure how to describe it but when I would do a pinching motion and "clack" the chain together the two made different sounds and the OEM one would actually recoil where the aftermarket chain absorbed the bounce and would barely moved - is this wear on the oem chain or different material being used?
• I re-installed all OEM parts except for the tensioner with metal on Bank 1, as the plastic slide was cracked so I used the aftermarket one - it seemed to matched up well.
• I was more cautious and in-depth with setting TDC on crank/cams with additional wedges to prevent movement on torque, tension, etc

I am using this method to set timing:

You Tube

I have also cross referenced this repair manual: Chain And Sprockets, Timing: Installation: Installation — 2013 Chrysler 200 Limited, 4D Sedan, 3.6L Eng VIN G Service Manual ~ LEMON Manuals

I am following that manual to a T* with one exception, the second installation;
* I completely disassembled all timing components (including chains, tensioners, cams, rockets) - the engine had no resistance as rotated over very smoothly

* After installing the exhaust phasers I installed the remaining guides to increase tension.

* With this slight more tension I was able to use the phase wedges to lock the phasers.

* The first installation I was using only the cam locking tool, second time around I used both the cam locking tool and the phaser locking tools - together. However I was not able to wedge the phasers without all guides installed to increase the tensions as the chain would rotate when wedging without the extra tension. With the cams and phasers locked I was able to torque the oil cam valve (bolts) to 118ft without the cams moving at all. At least that I could noticed, they definitely moved on first install when torquing without the phaser wedge.

* I torqued the OCVs before releasing tensions (due to sufficient lock/wedge) this time

Verified all timing marks, released the tensioners, removed wedges/locks, and.... SAME THING. ENGINE WILL NOT TURN OVER - STRONG RESISTANCE AFTER FEW DEGREES TDC. Fml.

What the hell am I doing wrong?? I used a borescope and it looks like cylinder 1 & 4 are at the top??? Please help me, I haven't seen my family (or daylight) in what seems like a fortnight. 😅 Do I need to replace the phasers?

Borescope Video:

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/1decn...=m51tsoav&dl=0

 

Can you post a photo of a full screen of how you have the timing componets aligned?
Kind of hard to figure out what your looking at full picture...
Also what year is this engine?

Sorry ... I have been a little busy lately... I'll try to check in a little more....

 

Reference: another way

 

Everything looked lined up correctly, used a borescope and verified with a buddy nothing was making contact - the fix was to SLIGHTLY turn one or more of the cams. Free'd up the engine and it rotated overly smoothly no problem. Happy hacking.

 

Good to know you got all the timing valvetrain back together..... Keep us posted if it runs good and drives well after it is all back together...

Cheers

 

I actually had forbidden glitter in my oil pan... I, uh... I don't know what would of caused it. I had a "buddy" come to help me get it back together and he is who discovered a wiggle of the cams would free up the engine - HOWEVER - he is more liberal in safety and procedure cautions (likely because not his car) and had adjust, from what I remember, 2/3 maybe even all 4 cams. Had I known what I know now... I would of minimally moved each cam in each direction until the engine turned, I'm sure this would of worked. Instead, he moved multiple cams likely more than I would of moved (all cam and phaser locks were removed) so adjustments were likely ~3-6 degree per cam. Keep in mind the specific locking tools I bought were "per oem mopar spec" so I'm sure something was off tdc... either way I ran a magnet through and nothing ever collected so I'm guessing this is aluminium? Maybe guide wear? I have really ran the engine more than 10-15m as I was putting it together I spilled oil and the gf ( trying to help ) poured water down the engine bay... well the dip-stick was up and got some water in there so that is a whole other story. Already did an oil flush. Still had water oil but (still had some) much less forbidden glitter.... likely going to pull everything and re-do the job again myself slowly and meticulously... fml.

 

Sounds like quit a chore..... Hope it all turns out good for you... Keep chipping at it, i'm sure you will get it fixed soon.... Keep us posted.... Thanks or Sharing all you findings,, . Cheers