1967 383 Plymouth Fury Timing chain
10-05-2013, 10:38 AM
#1
1967 383 Plymouth Fury Timing chain
I've racked my brains stupid trying to figure this out, I have the keyway point towards number one while the dots are lined up on TDC. I've tried TDC with the cam dot and crank dot lined up, Still nothing =( I've replaced the push rods, Condensor, Cap, Rotor, Points, Plugs, I've gone through countless coils thinking that was the problem, I took the timing cover off and check and watched it jump teeth while having it cranked over, So thats what led me to putting on this comp timing set. Can anyone give me any information on this? I've had this car about 5 months, I bought it for 500$ and a .22 Rifle. I've got over 2k invested in it so far, My last option is to sell it and take a loss =(
10-05-2013, 10:52 AM
#2
Sell ? Don't do that! After replacing the chain did you index the dist drive gear ? do you have 12 V on the coil ? DO the points spark when opened/closed manually
Does the motor pop or do anything when cranking ?
Have you checked the ballast resistor on the firewall ?
Does the motor pop or do anything when cranking ?
Have you checked the ballast resistor on the firewall ?
The following users liked this post:
Kyle Monroe (10-05-2013)
10-05-2013, 10:55 AM
#3
I didn't index the distrib gear..I have 12v to the coil, Points do spark when opened and closed. It's hard to explain the sound the engine makes when cranking, It almost sounds like it's trying to start, Then it sounds like the timing is off and popping through the carb. The ballast is new and is still good. I'm at a loss -_-
10-05-2013, 12:57 PM
#4
i dragged out my 1967 coronet paper factory service manual. page 9-61 fig. 36 shows the distributor and oil pump drive gear with the slot on center line of crank. for 383-440 engines. when the dots on the cam gear are straight up and down with each other, ie facing each other. :::::: NEW PROSESS: to set the dist. set the #1 piston to TDC compression. set the rotor to #1 tower and engauge dist into oil pump slot. NOTE: these has NOTHING to do with the dots on the cam gear.
10-05-2013, 02:41 PM
#5
Mopar Lover
Cam Dot @ 6:00
Crank Dot @ 12:00
Install the Dist. At # 1
Re check plug wire order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
# 1 Cyl is on the drivers side (1-3-5-7)
Drives side will be (2-4-6-8)
Dist Rotation Counter Clockwise....
Try that and see how it starts ?????
Keep us posted....
Crank Dot @ 12:00
Install the Dist. At # 1
Re check plug wire order 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
# 1 Cyl is on the drivers side (1-3-5-7)
Drives side will be (2-4-6-8)
Dist Rotation Counter Clockwise....
Try that and see how it starts ?????
Keep us posted....
Last edited by RacerHog; 10-05-2013 at 04:14 PM.
10-05-2013, 03:29 PM
#6
Mopar Lover
If you have it trying to start from what you`ve described turn the dist. clockwise to give it more advanced. The wanting to start with carb popping are usual signs.
10-05-2013, 09:29 PM
#7
Sorry I was away with my girlfriend for the night, I've actually done that RH. I don't know what else it could be, I've gotten it to turn over without backfiring through the carb. Had a flame shoot out at me until I fixed it. She will turn over but still not start. Only another forum I'm on this is what another person told me.
"Line the dots up on the timing chain dot to dot straight up and down on the inside. Drop the distributor in its hole and where the rotor points, that will be number 6 sparkplug, not number one. It's just how it is, timing marks lined up on the timing chain set the exhaust valve, not the intake valve, so it is 180 degrees out, this corrects the problem. We can go from there."
Do you think that would do anything?
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RacerHog (10-06-2013)
03-02-2014, 07:05 AM
#9
Sorry for not replying for a long time, Work has gotten so hectic lol. Here's a little update, I had a friend come over and look at it, He set the timing and we tried starting it, He said there was a lifter that was collapsed so I went out and replaced all 16. Needless to say there is no Improvement. I'll list everything I've done to see If I've done anything out of place.
I've replaced the distrib, Points, condens, Plugs, plug wires. Carbs been rebuilt, It gets fuel, Has spark to coil, points and plugs. All 16 lifters, new push rods, They were a few bent when I first bought the car. The rotor cap and button.
When I did TDC myself to set the timing chain, I pulled the no1 plug, Plugged my finger over it and bumped the starter relay til I felt compression, I hand turned it after that to the top. Set the timing chain on, Pulled the distrib cap and set the firing order. I pulled the distrib and used a flat screw driver to point the slot towards no1. Pumped the gas a few times then tried firing over, ALL the lifters are working right now as in opening and closing.
I still have the same result. Nothing. =( It seems like it's just turning over and not even firing now. I've even tried priming it with ether and it seems like it fires after that, It'll back fire through the exhaust when I retard it then slowly start to advance it. But when I try priming with gas I don't get anything out of it.
I've replaced the distrib, Points, condens, Plugs, plug wires. Carbs been rebuilt, It gets fuel, Has spark to coil, points and plugs. All 16 lifters, new push rods, They were a few bent when I first bought the car. The rotor cap and button.
When I did TDC myself to set the timing chain, I pulled the no1 plug, Plugged my finger over it and bumped the starter relay til I felt compression, I hand turned it after that to the top. Set the timing chain on, Pulled the distrib cap and set the firing order. I pulled the distrib and used a flat screw driver to point the slot towards no1. Pumped the gas a few times then tried firing over, ALL the lifters are working right now as in opening and closing.
I still have the same result. Nothing. =( It seems like it's just turning over and not even firing now. I've even tried priming it with ether and it seems like it fires after that, It'll back fire through the exhaust when I retard it then slowly start to advance it. But when I try priming with gas I don't get anything out of it.
03-02-2014, 08:46 AM
#11
Yes points are adjusted right, I've double checked that to be sure, I have power to the coil too. I don't think the NSS would have anything to do with it, But Is it possible?
03-02-2014, 10:22 AM
#13
It's time, here, to get down to the very very basics
Engines need three things to run
========================
Of course the cam must be in time It SOUNDS like you have checked this? You have looked? Carefully? "straight in" with no parallax, using a straightedge to examine the two marks, and you are SURE you are looking at the marks? With the marks properly aligned, the crank KEY should be somewhere around 1 O'clock, and not straight up If you look in your shop manual (at least for stock cams) there IS a procedure for setting the timing marks and watching a timing cycle, to estimate cam timing. This is intended to be a troubleshooting aid, looking for "slipped" cam timing.
========================
1...COMPRESSION........at least enough to run. So run a compression check. These days, with stores like O'Reallys loaning out some tools, the www, and Horrid Freight, there's no reason anybody cannot afford a decent usable compression tester and leakdown tester.
=========================
2...FUEL......If the car has been sitting, abandon the fuel system as the fuel may be sour. Squirt a little down the carb throat, use starting fluid, or (safely) "rig" a can from above and a siphon into the carb inlet
==========================
3...TIMING and SPARK........You need a good hot spark and at the right TIME
CHECK the spark. It is important to understand that the electrical path is DIFFERENT when using the KEY to crank the engine and when jumpering the START RELAY. "Rig" a spark gap right at the coil and crank the engine USING THE KEY. You should get a nice, fat, hot spark at least 3/8" or longer. IF NOT, measure voltage at the coil+ when cranking WITH the KEY. You should have within 1/2 volt of cranking battery volage, and in no case less than 10V.
THE ABOVE is IMPERATIVE. You cannot expect the engine to run without spark.
(On a side note, if you have been working on this while leaving the key "in run" and the points happen to be closed, they can be damaged by sitting with current going through)
======================
TIMING. The indexing of the distributor (intermediate) gear has NOTHING to do with how these girls are timed. The ONLY reason this is specified is so that
the assembly line folks can wrench, repeat
the plug wires lay "nice"
the tuneup mechanics see "what they expect" to see.
The truth is you can "throw" the distributor gear in blindfolded, "toss" the distributor in whichever of the two ways it fits, and time the engine. ALSO some later model and aftermarket distributors (at least for small blocks) do not have the rotor indexed in the same position to the drive tang as originals!!!!!
===========================
SO DO THIS
Get or make a piston stop WHY? To be absolutely certain without question, that the balancer timing mark is correct
The one pictured, if you use it without the screw 'all the way in' needs a jam nut to be added to make the screw SOLID. You do not want it to move.
Remove the no1 plug, make sure the piston is "down a ways" and unhook the battery ground
Insert the device. You will have to "play" with it for length the first time you use it. You are NOT trying to stop the piston at TDC, but rather "some distance" down in the bore. Wrench the engine around until the piston stops on the device. Carefully make an accurate, temporary marke below the zero mark on the tab, onto the balancer.
Now rotate the engine CCW, until it again stops on the device. Make a second mark on the balancer under the tab zero mark.
Now you will have two temporary marks on the balancer, and true TDC will be exactly halfway in between. If the original mark is accurate, that is where it will be.
==================================
NOW Put your finger in no1, bump the engine until you feel compression. AS SOON as you start to feel compression, watch for the timing marks "coming up." DO NOT set the engine at TDC, but rather, set the engine for at least 10-12 BTC and if you have a "hot" cam, even more that that, as much as 15--20 BTC.
With the engine in this position, "swing" the distributor so that the vacuum advance is in the middle area of it's travel, IE you have 'room' to adjust. Install / uninstall the cap while looking at the rotor / cap to determine which plug tower the rotor is approaching. Remember, the rotor turns CCW on a B/ RB.
Give the rotor a snap to CCW a couple of times. If the advance is free and working, you should be able to "spring" it CCW, and it should snap right back.
Now, put a meter or test lamp on the coil NEG, or even just "rig" a spark gap at the coil. With the key in "run" intentionally RETARD timing by moving the dist. CW until the points are CLOSED. Now SLOWLY move the dist CCW (advanced) until the points JUST open. This should light your test lamp, move your meter from a low voltage to battery V, or make a spark at the gap.
SNUG the dist clamp.
RECHECK the cap as to which tower the rotor is aligned with. Remember, it will be approaching as it moves CCW. Plug no 1 into that tower. 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2 COUNTER clockwise around the cap
SETTING timing in this manner should be accurate enough that the engine will fire and run without messing with the timing
IF YOU have any doubt, you can ALSO use a timing light "on the starter." Simply hook it up, crank the engine, and look for the timing marks!!!!
NOW FUEL. Again, if the engine has been sitting, 'assume' that fuel in the tank is stale. Squirt a bit of fuel down the throats, that is, known clean fuel you have just purchased.
If necessary, disconnect and plug the fuel supply line, and SAFELY rig an overhead container with a siphon hose.
Engines need three things to run
========================
Of course the cam must be in time It SOUNDS like you have checked this? You have looked? Carefully? "straight in" with no parallax, using a straightedge to examine the two marks, and you are SURE you are looking at the marks? With the marks properly aligned, the crank KEY should be somewhere around 1 O'clock, and not straight up If you look in your shop manual (at least for stock cams) there IS a procedure for setting the timing marks and watching a timing cycle, to estimate cam timing. This is intended to be a troubleshooting aid, looking for "slipped" cam timing.
========================
1...COMPRESSION........at least enough to run. So run a compression check. These days, with stores like O'Reallys loaning out some tools, the www, and Horrid Freight, there's no reason anybody cannot afford a decent usable compression tester and leakdown tester.
=========================
2...FUEL......If the car has been sitting, abandon the fuel system as the fuel may be sour. Squirt a little down the carb throat, use starting fluid, or (safely) "rig" a can from above and a siphon into the carb inlet
==========================
3...TIMING and SPARK........You need a good hot spark and at the right TIME
CHECK the spark. It is important to understand that the electrical path is DIFFERENT when using the KEY to crank the engine and when jumpering the START RELAY. "Rig" a spark gap right at the coil and crank the engine USING THE KEY. You should get a nice, fat, hot spark at least 3/8" or longer. IF NOT, measure voltage at the coil+ when cranking WITH the KEY. You should have within 1/2 volt of cranking battery volage, and in no case less than 10V.
THE ABOVE is IMPERATIVE. You cannot expect the engine to run without spark.
(On a side note, if you have been working on this while leaving the key "in run" and the points happen to be closed, they can be damaged by sitting with current going through)
======================
TIMING. The indexing of the distributor (intermediate) gear has NOTHING to do with how these girls are timed. The ONLY reason this is specified is so that
the assembly line folks can wrench, repeat
the plug wires lay "nice"
the tuneup mechanics see "what they expect" to see.
The truth is you can "throw" the distributor gear in blindfolded, "toss" the distributor in whichever of the two ways it fits, and time the engine. ALSO some later model and aftermarket distributors (at least for small blocks) do not have the rotor indexed in the same position to the drive tang as originals!!!!!
===========================
SO DO THIS
Get or make a piston stop WHY? To be absolutely certain without question, that the balancer timing mark is correct
The one pictured, if you use it without the screw 'all the way in' needs a jam nut to be added to make the screw SOLID. You do not want it to move.
Remove the no1 plug, make sure the piston is "down a ways" and unhook the battery ground
Insert the device. You will have to "play" with it for length the first time you use it. You are NOT trying to stop the piston at TDC, but rather "some distance" down in the bore. Wrench the engine around until the piston stops on the device. Carefully make an accurate, temporary marke below the zero mark on the tab, onto the balancer.
Now rotate the engine CCW, until it again stops on the device. Make a second mark on the balancer under the tab zero mark.
Now you will have two temporary marks on the balancer, and true TDC will be exactly halfway in between. If the original mark is accurate, that is where it will be.
==================================
NOW Put your finger in no1, bump the engine until you feel compression. AS SOON as you start to feel compression, watch for the timing marks "coming up." DO NOT set the engine at TDC, but rather, set the engine for at least 10-12 BTC and if you have a "hot" cam, even more that that, as much as 15--20 BTC.
With the engine in this position, "swing" the distributor so that the vacuum advance is in the middle area of it's travel, IE you have 'room' to adjust. Install / uninstall the cap while looking at the rotor / cap to determine which plug tower the rotor is approaching. Remember, the rotor turns CCW on a B/ RB.
Give the rotor a snap to CCW a couple of times. If the advance is free and working, you should be able to "spring" it CCW, and it should snap right back.
Now, put a meter or test lamp on the coil NEG, or even just "rig" a spark gap at the coil. With the key in "run" intentionally RETARD timing by moving the dist. CW until the points are CLOSED. Now SLOWLY move the dist CCW (advanced) until the points JUST open. This should light your test lamp, move your meter from a low voltage to battery V, or make a spark at the gap.
SNUG the dist clamp.
RECHECK the cap as to which tower the rotor is aligned with. Remember, it will be approaching as it moves CCW. Plug no 1 into that tower. 1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2 COUNTER clockwise around the cap
SETTING timing in this manner should be accurate enough that the engine will fire and run without messing with the timing
IF YOU have any doubt, you can ALSO use a timing light "on the starter." Simply hook it up, crank the engine, and look for the timing marks!!!!
NOW FUEL. Again, if the engine has been sitting, 'assume' that fuel in the tank is stale. Squirt a bit of fuel down the throats, that is, known clean fuel you have just purchased.
If necessary, disconnect and plug the fuel supply line, and SAFELY rig an overhead container with a siphon hose.
Last edited by 440roadrunner; 03-02-2014 at 10:32 AM.
03-02-2014, 10:34 AM
#14
I posted this last separately. This would be rare, but THIS HAPPENED over at FABO last year. IS THERE any possibility that you accidently got a truck gear drive cam or a marine reverse cam?
Since you are having so much trouble, and if a compression check shows no real compression, I would mark the balancer at 90 degree points, and run it through a complete engine cycle, watching for correct valve events on each cylinder.
Since you are having so much trouble, and if a compression check shows no real compression, I would mark the balancer at 90 degree points, and run it through a complete engine cycle, watching for correct valve events on each cylinder.
03-02-2014, 11:45 AM
#16
Mopar Lover
Man...Rite when things are in the doomest hour... 440RoadRunner throws in a good one...... Gets me every-time !!!!! Great thought....
440 I hate you! Just kidding. You rock Dude..
440 I hate you! Just kidding. You rock Dude..
03-08-2014, 03:59 PM
#19
Sorry for the delay in replying, Been hectic as usual. Work shitty, Girlfriend pregnant etc.
Update! I pulled the front of the engine back off, I pulled the number one plug and had my brother bump it over by key til I felt compression. I stuck a dowel in the see where the piston was, It was comming up. I hand turned it til the keyway was towards 1 oclock and "O" was straight up, Spun the cam twice and lined up both marks with a ruler. I always tried it with the keyway up. It's a multi key crank gear btw. Advanc and retard.
Checked where number one was at on the rotor, It is where I had it before. I've checked the coil, Coil is getting charge. Btw I forget the numbers but If I'm remebering right, They were at spec. Sorry I'll go out and write them down tomorrow morning and post again. I tried a little starting spray, Ended up hiccuping and starting a small fire on my intake and carb, After putting that out I let it set for a few hours and tried some gas. The gas I got more actions out of. I'm the the best at explaining things so please bare with me on this..
I trickled then dump a small bit of gas down the carb, It let out a small pop and it started moving the butterfly when being cranked over like it was nothing but air hitting it. Still nothing, The engine spins but acts like it isn't getting fire. I have fire to the spark plugs. Learnt that the hard way, Was going to stick it to the frame and have my brother bump it over but he turned the key before I got my hand off it and gave me a little jolt. It has a small arc from the plugs. I went out and replaced the points, Picked up two sets just in case. Set them with a .17 feeler. Still nothing...
I'm at a loss here, I know It's something stupid and I'm getting myself worked up over it. It's always something simple. I spent the rest of the day bonding a spot on the car. Btw never stand down wind when sanding, Bondo does burn the eyes
Update! I pulled the front of the engine back off, I pulled the number one plug and had my brother bump it over by key til I felt compression. I stuck a dowel in the see where the piston was, It was comming up. I hand turned it til the keyway was towards 1 oclock and "O" was straight up, Spun the cam twice and lined up both marks with a ruler. I always tried it with the keyway up. It's a multi key crank gear btw. Advanc and retard.
Checked where number one was at on the rotor, It is where I had it before. I've checked the coil, Coil is getting charge. Btw I forget the numbers but If I'm remebering right, They were at spec. Sorry I'll go out and write them down tomorrow morning and post again. I tried a little starting spray, Ended up hiccuping and starting a small fire on my intake and carb, After putting that out I let it set for a few hours and tried some gas. The gas I got more actions out of. I'm the the best at explaining things so please bare with me on this..
I trickled then dump a small bit of gas down the carb, It let out a small pop and it started moving the butterfly when being cranked over like it was nothing but air hitting it. Still nothing, The engine spins but acts like it isn't getting fire. I have fire to the spark plugs. Learnt that the hard way, Was going to stick it to the frame and have my brother bump it over but he turned the key before I got my hand off it and gave me a little jolt. It has a small arc from the plugs. I went out and replaced the points, Picked up two sets just in case. Set them with a .17 feeler. Still nothing...
I'm at a loss here, I know It's something stupid and I'm getting myself worked up over it. It's always something simple. I spent the rest of the day bonding a spot on the car. Btw never stand down wind when sanding, Bondo does burn the eyes
Last edited by Kyle Monroe; 03-08-2014 at 04:57 PM.
03-08-2014, 04:01 PM
#20
And another thing, I just remebered sorry. I ran the serial on the heads when I had them off to replace the gaskets, No bent valves btw. They're off of a 440bb. Is there something else I'm missing since they aren't the original heads?
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