Ok can someone tell me where I went wrong?
12-05-2007, 11:50 PM
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Ok can someone tell me where I went wrong?
Ok the first thing you guys need to realize, I'm trying to play on a cop's salary, so bear with me. This is going to be kinda long and drawn out.
As you can see in my avitar, I mud race. Two years ago I built the motor in this truck, and I think I screwed up in several ways, but I want to know what my worst mistake was, so I don't do it again.
Now to race in my class, I have to run factory head castings I.E. OEM only. No Stage V's even though they are cast iron etc. So I had Dan Dvorak build me a set of 906's with the large valves 2.14 in 1.81 ex. He performed his "super port flow" and his black magic whatever else he does. I.E cost me $1400.
I then had a 72 440 block machined. (Magnufluxed, Sonic Checked, Decked, Line Bored, Squared, Bored, matched to pistons ect.) The pistons were the Speed-Pro forged #TRW-L2295F30, I had them on the 6 pack rods, with a factory steel crank.
I first ran a Comp Cams 292 (.244 dur @.050, w/.501 lift). This POS didn't even make it through cam break-in. I then ran a Comp 280 (.230 dur @.050 w/.480 lift) I was able to run about a year on it before it rounded. I then switched to a Lunati 292 (.236 dur@.050, w/.050 lift). It was holding up perfectly, till the motor quit.
Other specs include a Edelbrock TorkerII intake, a Predator Carb, and MSD 6a ignition.
Now the first year I ran it, it sounded atrocious, at low rpms but it did wonderful if you could ever get it over 5500. The final race of the year, the truck freakin screamed, I out ran trucks in the class above me (and they are allowed gutting bodies, paddle tires, and nitrous). During the run I tacked out the motor (Tachometer goes to 8,000, and it was bouncing off the peg, furthermore the truck was in the air more than it was in the mud) but after the run was done the motor was running terrible, and that was when the major problems started.
After that it made this horrible noise, which I could only compare to detonation, however there were no signs of detonation. The motor would fire up and run perfectly when it was cold, but when it came up to operating temperature, it would act like it was fighting itself just to run. If you would put it under anykind of load, it would be the most gutless thing you've ever seen. And trying to start it at operating temp, sheesh forget that, you'd have to wait for about an hour.
The next spring I tore into the motor, and found second Comp Cam had rounded. I then switched to a Lunati. I also discovered that I had the cam timing off by a tooth (retarted) so I fixed those problems. And fired it up again, did cam breakin again, checked everything and it was holding up great. This time it sounded wonderful at all rpm ranges. However the seizing problem was still persistent. Nothing I could do would help this. Also the detonation noise was still there. It was worse when the motor was cold, and went mostly away when it was warm. Well the next bog I raced at looked promising, the truck was running perfectly (when cold, but whatever right?) Well the motor got warm while staging and then died, and I couldn't get it started again so I had to forfeit the first run. The second run I made it to the line. Got the green light, and the truck freakin launched hard, and the rpm's came up to about 5,000, and I went to shift to 2nd, and the truck started loosing rpms. I saw the oil pressure dropping, and it stalled.
The damn thing wouldn't crank over, and acted like it was completely seized. We pulled it to our pit, and worked for hours that night trying to get it to start or spin over even. We had a 1/2 in breaker bar on the Harmonic Balancer, and it wouldn't budge. After about 4 hours, it cooled off, and fired right up again. Well when I got it to my shop again, I pulled the plugs, which showed no signs of detonation. 6 of the plugs looked perfectly they were #'s 1,2,3,4,5,&7. #'6 & 8, looked like they hadn't fired in a while. I ran a compression check, and every cylinder was between 165 and 170 lbs. I pulled the valve cover, and everything was fine on the valvetrain. There also wasn't any problems in the ignition, that I could find.
Everybody was telling me how bad the Bosch Platinum plugs were, so I thought they were the problem, so I switched to the Copper Autolites. This didn't make any improvement. I went out still trying to tune, i put mufflers on it, so I could hear the motor. I hammered down, just like a mud run would be. The rpms came up to about 4500, the oil pressure dropped again, and it just died. I almost got it to start back up, but it wouldn't. I let it cool off, and this time this sucker is seized.
So here are the theories that I have been given by the other mud racers.
1: My rotating assembly was too heavy (I.E. Speed-Pro pistons + 6 pack rods = bad combo for racing applications) , and I over-revved it and screwed up the bearings.
2: I was running crappy oil, with too loose tolerances. (Rotella 15W-40W Diesel Oil)
3: I'm running Mopar
4: I was using the stock 3/8" oil pickup, and I starved it for oil.
5: The machine shop missed a bent connecting rod.
6: The flat camshafts ate the bearings.
7: All of the above.
If you guys can think of anything else that I did wrong, or anything else it could have been, tell me. I want to chalk this one up to a learning experience, even though it makes me sick thinking about it.
As you can see in my avitar, I mud race. Two years ago I built the motor in this truck, and I think I screwed up in several ways, but I want to know what my worst mistake was, so I don't do it again.
Now to race in my class, I have to run factory head castings I.E. OEM only. No Stage V's even though they are cast iron etc. So I had Dan Dvorak build me a set of 906's with the large valves 2.14 in 1.81 ex. He performed his "super port flow" and his black magic whatever else he does. I.E cost me $1400.
I then had a 72 440 block machined. (Magnufluxed, Sonic Checked, Decked, Line Bored, Squared, Bored, matched to pistons ect.) The pistons were the Speed-Pro forged #TRW-L2295F30, I had them on the 6 pack rods, with a factory steel crank.
I first ran a Comp Cams 292 (.244 dur @.050, w/.501 lift). This POS didn't even make it through cam break-in. I then ran a Comp 280 (.230 dur @.050 w/.480 lift) I was able to run about a year on it before it rounded. I then switched to a Lunati 292 (.236 dur@.050, w/.050 lift). It was holding up perfectly, till the motor quit.
Other specs include a Edelbrock TorkerII intake, a Predator Carb, and MSD 6a ignition.
Now the first year I ran it, it sounded atrocious, at low rpms but it did wonderful if you could ever get it over 5500. The final race of the year, the truck freakin screamed, I out ran trucks in the class above me (and they are allowed gutting bodies, paddle tires, and nitrous). During the run I tacked out the motor (Tachometer goes to 8,000, and it was bouncing off the peg, furthermore the truck was in the air more than it was in the mud) but after the run was done the motor was running terrible, and that was when the major problems started.
After that it made this horrible noise, which I could only compare to detonation, however there were no signs of detonation. The motor would fire up and run perfectly when it was cold, but when it came up to operating temperature, it would act like it was fighting itself just to run. If you would put it under anykind of load, it would be the most gutless thing you've ever seen. And trying to start it at operating temp, sheesh forget that, you'd have to wait for about an hour.
The next spring I tore into the motor, and found second Comp Cam had rounded. I then switched to a Lunati. I also discovered that I had the cam timing off by a tooth (retarted) so I fixed those problems. And fired it up again, did cam breakin again, checked everything and it was holding up great. This time it sounded wonderful at all rpm ranges. However the seizing problem was still persistent. Nothing I could do would help this. Also the detonation noise was still there. It was worse when the motor was cold, and went mostly away when it was warm. Well the next bog I raced at looked promising, the truck was running perfectly (when cold, but whatever right?) Well the motor got warm while staging and then died, and I couldn't get it started again so I had to forfeit the first run. The second run I made it to the line. Got the green light, and the truck freakin launched hard, and the rpm's came up to about 5,000, and I went to shift to 2nd, and the truck started loosing rpms. I saw the oil pressure dropping, and it stalled.
The damn thing wouldn't crank over, and acted like it was completely seized. We pulled it to our pit, and worked for hours that night trying to get it to start or spin over even. We had a 1/2 in breaker bar on the Harmonic Balancer, and it wouldn't budge. After about 4 hours, it cooled off, and fired right up again. Well when I got it to my shop again, I pulled the plugs, which showed no signs of detonation. 6 of the plugs looked perfectly they were #'s 1,2,3,4,5,&7. #'6 & 8, looked like they hadn't fired in a while. I ran a compression check, and every cylinder was between 165 and 170 lbs. I pulled the valve cover, and everything was fine on the valvetrain. There also wasn't any problems in the ignition, that I could find.
Everybody was telling me how bad the Bosch Platinum plugs were, so I thought they were the problem, so I switched to the Copper Autolites. This didn't make any improvement. I went out still trying to tune, i put mufflers on it, so I could hear the motor. I hammered down, just like a mud run would be. The rpms came up to about 4500, the oil pressure dropped again, and it just died. I almost got it to start back up, but it wouldn't. I let it cool off, and this time this sucker is seized.
So here are the theories that I have been given by the other mud racers.
1: My rotating assembly was too heavy (I.E. Speed-Pro pistons + 6 pack rods = bad combo for racing applications) , and I over-revved it and screwed up the bearings.
2: I was running crappy oil, with too loose tolerances. (Rotella 15W-40W Diesel Oil)
3: I'm running Mopar
4: I was using the stock 3/8" oil pickup, and I starved it for oil.
5: The machine shop missed a bent connecting rod.
6: The flat camshafts ate the bearings.
7: All of the above.
If you guys can think of anything else that I did wrong, or anything else it could have been, tell me. I want to chalk this one up to a learning experience, even though it makes me sick thinking about it.
12-07-2007, 06:17 AM
#3
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are several on here and keep your post at the top and someone will respond. You have quite a situation and it will take someone who builds several engines to come along and see your post. Don't lose heart.
Kenny
Kenny
12-07-2007, 08:22 AM
#4
With all due respect, and no sarcasm intended, you need to find a LOCAL person who can give you some hands on, personal advice on engine building. For example, your worries about "what spark plug" at the same time that you are experiencing major engine seizing problems shows just how far astray you've gotten.
You spend a fair amount of money on the block, but--you used six-pack rods, which need to be incorporated into rebalancing the engine. You make no mention of this.
UNLESS A PROPERLY BUILT ENGINE--RUNNING PROPER CLEARANCES is SEVERELY overheated, it should not EVER seize, not EVER!!! If you have an engine that won't crank, seizes, etc, you need to tear it down and find out WHY!!! Piston-wall clearance, broken/ damaged/ dirty ring grooves, wrong rings-wrong end gap, inadequate rod side clearance, and rod/ main bearins too tight can all contribute. (add--cooling system!!)
The fact that you keep going through cams suggests you have a SERIOUS oiling problem. Again, get back to basics. Tear the engine down. Watch carefully when tearing down. Check oil passage matchup with head gaskets, use probes to verify ALL block and head passages, and check the cam bearings for alignment. Pumps are not all that expensive, it might just pay to dump the pump and buy another. Check CAREFULLY the pickup, that it is the correct one, and is on the bottom of the pan, and has not cracks or leaks. Also, with the horrid things you are putting that truck through, you might be bouncing enough oil right out of the pan that the pump is sucking air. Are you running a windage tray? I can't picture what you are doing, (you are describing jumping the truck) You MIGHT be in the envelope of needing a dry sump system)
Turning one of these engines with what is in reality a budget build to anywhere near 8000 is ludicrous. I hope you have a good scatter shield. You might want to consider a rev limiter, set say, to 6500
You admit the cam was "off a tooth." This suggests SERIOUS errors in engine building technique, and is why I suggest you find a local person for advice. This is a mistake that should NOT EVER HAPPEN (If you are running the stock type fiber sprocket, it might have "slipped." Get rid of THAT)
You speak of "I thought the plugs were the problem" and then say "went out still trying to tune." The trouble is a lot more basic that tuneup, I can assure you
Your theories:
1: You might be somewhat on the right track, again I would not run six pack rods, UNLESS you have balanced the mass to be compatible
2 Too loose? If anything, too tight. I doubt the oil is the problem
3: Please don't insult me. I've run several B block Mopars very hard, for a lot of miles. I've owned a '69 383 RR, a '70 six pack, a '64 426, along with a 340 which spent some time in the '70RR as well as a Landcruiser, with a few 273, 328, and others thrown in. My last 440 ended up in a friend's '74 Dodge 1/2T and ran very well for miles and miles
4. Yes, you might be starving for oil. The only way to tell is examine the bearing surfaces of the crank and cam I doubt that the SIZE of the pickup is the problem. It might be damaged, cracked, leaking, might not be on the pan bottom, you might need a windage tray, or even a dry sump. If you are bouncing this truck so hard in the air that the pickup is sucking air, it certainly is not the PICKUP tube's fault
5 Are you saying you HAVE a bent rod? Probably not from the machine shop!! This would NOT cause seizing only at warm temps
6 Only way to tell is tear it down!! Question is, what caused the flat cams?
7 No, I think you'll find one root cause, like poor assembly, tight bearings, starving for oil, etc.
8 How do you know the cooling system is adequate?
You spend a fair amount of money on the block, but--you used six-pack rods, which need to be incorporated into rebalancing the engine. You make no mention of this.
UNLESS A PROPERLY BUILT ENGINE--RUNNING PROPER CLEARANCES is SEVERELY overheated, it should not EVER seize, not EVER!!! If you have an engine that won't crank, seizes, etc, you need to tear it down and find out WHY!!! Piston-wall clearance, broken/ damaged/ dirty ring grooves, wrong rings-wrong end gap, inadequate rod side clearance, and rod/ main bearins too tight can all contribute. (add--cooling system!!)
The fact that you keep going through cams suggests you have a SERIOUS oiling problem. Again, get back to basics. Tear the engine down. Watch carefully when tearing down. Check oil passage matchup with head gaskets, use probes to verify ALL block and head passages, and check the cam bearings for alignment. Pumps are not all that expensive, it might just pay to dump the pump and buy another. Check CAREFULLY the pickup, that it is the correct one, and is on the bottom of the pan, and has not cracks or leaks. Also, with the horrid things you are putting that truck through, you might be bouncing enough oil right out of the pan that the pump is sucking air. Are you running a windage tray? I can't picture what you are doing, (you are describing jumping the truck) You MIGHT be in the envelope of needing a dry sump system)
Turning one of these engines with what is in reality a budget build to anywhere near 8000 is ludicrous. I hope you have a good scatter shield. You might want to consider a rev limiter, set say, to 6500
You admit the cam was "off a tooth." This suggests SERIOUS errors in engine building technique, and is why I suggest you find a local person for advice. This is a mistake that should NOT EVER HAPPEN (If you are running the stock type fiber sprocket, it might have "slipped." Get rid of THAT)
You speak of "I thought the plugs were the problem" and then say "went out still trying to tune." The trouble is a lot more basic that tuneup, I can assure you
Your theories:
1: You might be somewhat on the right track, again I would not run six pack rods, UNLESS you have balanced the mass to be compatible
2 Too loose? If anything, too tight. I doubt the oil is the problem
3: Please don't insult me. I've run several B block Mopars very hard, for a lot of miles. I've owned a '69 383 RR, a '70 six pack, a '64 426, along with a 340 which spent some time in the '70RR as well as a Landcruiser, with a few 273, 328, and others thrown in. My last 440 ended up in a friend's '74 Dodge 1/2T and ran very well for miles and miles
4. Yes, you might be starving for oil. The only way to tell is examine the bearing surfaces of the crank and cam I doubt that the SIZE of the pickup is the problem. It might be damaged, cracked, leaking, might not be on the pan bottom, you might need a windage tray, or even a dry sump. If you are bouncing this truck so hard in the air that the pickup is sucking air, it certainly is not the PICKUP tube's fault
5 Are you saying you HAVE a bent rod? Probably not from the machine shop!! This would NOT cause seizing only at warm temps
6 Only way to tell is tear it down!! Question is, what caused the flat cams?
7 No, I think you'll find one root cause, like poor assembly, tight bearings, starving for oil, etc.
8 How do you know the cooling system is adequate?
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Hibred
Engines, Exhaust and Fuel systems
21
11-29-2012 07:28 AM
1966DartConvertible
A-Body
6
08-06-2010 09:03 AM
67 Fury
General Technical Questions
1
01-07-2010 10:29 PM
BigBlocksNHardRock
General Technical Questions
7
04-25-2007 10:07 PM
