fastdakota84

Hey,

I just rebuilt a 440 that I dropped in my 99 Dakota. I am using the stock electric fuel pump. I turned the key to the on position to prime the pump to the holley regulator then to the carb. When I went to crank it to fire it up for the first time, the engine turned, and then turned slower. Then when I tried cranking it again, the engine would turn once then stop. I'm not sure if I flooded the engine or what? I pulled one plug and it didn't look wet. I don't want to crank it too much since there is not much lubrication and I afraid of bending something. Any ideas?

Polaradude

Hows the battery ? or the grounds. Sounds like you're running out of juice.
If you are concerned about lube, squirt a short of motor oil into each plug hole and let er rip.

Barfly

My brother in arms!!! Nice to have ya here!!!
I also have a hopped up Dakota! Mines a '90 with a 1972 340/727 combo.

I don't know what to tell ya about your problem, but I sure am hoping you find the fix and get her on the road.


See I told you guys Dakota's are cool

fastdakota84

Hey thanks for the welcome! I'm hoping to get it on the road soon. Nice 340 Barfly.

I charged the battery for awhile and was getting a reading of 12.3 V, but it's been out of the truck for awhile so maybe the cranking amps are low. I never put a load on it. I'll try jumping it and see what happens.

Polaradude

Ok cool, have you checked for fuel squirting in to the carb etc etc, spark etc etc ? Other than the basics I'd say your just running low on amps. Keep us posted man, we'll help ya if we can.

sweeperking

If after charging your battery you only get 12.3v you got battery issues. I agree with polaradude (like that name by the way) sounds like your running out of juice. I would get a good healthy battery to crank the motor over before I start thinking fuel problems.

1966sportfury

12.3 volt isnt bad for charged battery, some batteries only hold at 11 volts, but you can have all the volts you need if the amps are not there then the battery is wothless,

getsum

what battery cables are you using the stock skinny one? they might not be able to handle the amperage required to crank over that bb. i have seen this a few times in class where someone rebuilds an engine with higher compression or puts a bb in instead and they try to start it and smoke the battery cables.

78D200

A standard car battery with no load in a non running car should be putting out ~12.6V (2.1V per cell). If you charge the battery, charge it with a slow charge. This will allow the battery to regain a better charge.

The apms it takes to turn over the motor is only what the starter requires. Inspect your battery cables and power cable that goes down to your starter.

How many ground cables are you running and where are they running to?

You should have one to the body and/or frame and at least one to the block or cylinder head. Since the starter grounds out through the block here is an easy way to help get the starter to turn over easier..... run a cable from teh negative of the battery to a mounting bolt on the starter. This will give direct current back to the battery and allow the start to turn over much easier.

Also, is the starter new or "older"?

fastdakota84

I think the battery cables should be ok (not fried). Off the negative battery mount, there is one cable that connects to the frame, just as it came from factory, the other, I believe, goes to the PDC (power distribution center). So you think it might need another ground cable going to the block to crank over the BB? I've gotten the battery charged up to 12.6V, but like I said, the amps could be low, it hasn't been cranked with the battery for about 1-2 years. It's a fairley new battery also. Also, it's a brand new mini starter for a BB. When i get home today, I'll jump it with my Ram, and see if that cranks it over.

78D200

On the Magnum motors (3.9, 5.2 and 5.9) there was another negative cable that ran from the negative cable to the A/C-Alt bracket housing. Yes, install another ground cable from the battery to the block. They did this on every vehicle that I have had that have seen pre-93 with V8s and even the slant 6. It certainly won't hurt anything.


Before jumping it with another vehicle, have someone use a voltmeter and see what the battery voltage is while the key is int eh start position (trying to start the motor). This will also tell you if you need a new battery. If you do need one, spend the money for a good one.

sweeperking

Sorry dude a battery at 12.3 volts is a little better than half charged.

Figure 3: BCI standard for SoC estimation of a 12V flooded lead acid car battery.

Test the battery at room temperature. Allow 4-8 hour of rest after charge or discharge.
Courtesy of BCI

sweeperking

Looks like my copy/paste didnt turn out but if a battery discharges down to 11v its considered completly discharged. If you drain a battery down to 11v multiple time it will be junk before you know it. (unless its a deep cycle battery)

1966sportfury

that is correct. but a battery with 12.3 will still start a engine. if it has the amps,

Commando

My recommendation on the electrical side is to make sure all your wires are tight, I have a similar sounding issue when I pull the wires on and off the battery, have to wiggle the cable on the post and then it is fine.

Next question: has the oil been primed, sometimes you have to prime the oil when they are rebuilt (depends on who has done it), I had to do this with mine, after priming had to add more oil.

BuckNeccid

Totally different track. You're using the stock 99 Dakota electric fuel pump? Isn't that for a fuel injected engine? If it is, you may be pushing too much pressure into the carb. You only need about 4-6 lbs of pressure for a carb, and most FI pumps are running 30 or more psi. Might want to check that out and get a regulator, even if it is a discharged battery



Oppps.. missed that he had a regulator... never mind

fastdakota84

Well, I charged the battery a little more and then jumped it to my Ram. The battery was weak, because it cranked over a lot better, but...never fired up. I know I've got fuel, because the pump pumps it through the regulator and my pressure gauge is reading, plus I checked to see there was fuel in the float bowl. Plus I even sprayed a little starting fluid just to double check. Nothing...

On that subject, my fuel pump runs continuously when the key is in the on position. I was under the understanding that electric pumps run continuously when on run or start. Before the swap, the wire that I grounded to work the relay was connected to the PCM, and when the key was turned to the on position, the pump would run for 2 secs, then stop because the regulator in the tank would read the ~ 45 psi, but now since there is a regulator, the pressure never reaches that so it runs continuously. The pressure gauge continually rises also past its regulated pressure. Which that could be part of the problem, pressure being to high. Its a Holley regulator, maybe I need a different one to handle the high pressure of the pump.

I also check for spark, and there is voltage at the coil, but when I plugged in an inline spark checker, no light, but I think the checker is bad, no resistance in wire, so I'll get another one and double check.

I just don't want to keep turning over the motor while no oil is running through the cam, and walls. I don't want to gall my new cam and lifters.

Sorry for the long post, I appreciate all the help to get this thing fired up!

scotts74birds

Sorry to hear that. A hard-starting engine is the LAST thing you want for your break-in run!

78D200

Do you have good compression?

Definitely fix the no spark and keep us posted.

sweeperking

Sounds like you got a plan, I'm following this one so keep us posted.

fastdakota84

I haven't checked compression, but it should be good, it was so hard to crank over, and I had a faily newer 900 CCA battery and still had to jump it. But like I said still was probably weak.

So do you guys have any ideas?

Do you guys agree that the regulator may not be able to handle the pressure from the pump since the gauge keeps climbing, and maybe need one that does?

Do you think this might be part of my start up problem if there is spark (Haven't checked yet)?

78D200

You need three things for a motor to run; fuel, spark, and compression. If you are mising any of those three, the motor will not run.

Get a regulator that can handle the pressure of the pump and yet still be able to regulate it down to single digits. If you need to run two then do that. One to go from pump pressure to lets say 15psi and then another one after that to go down to where it needs to be.

Get a spark tester that is a known good one, try it out on your truck even before and after.

Do a compression check to make sure that all cylinders are within 10% of eachother. If one cylinder is dead, that can keep you from running. Also make sure that your timing is within where it needs to be based on your cam.

Polaradude

Let us know about the spark issue. I mean you can check spark by getting someone to turn it over while you hold #1 wire with boot pulled back close to the block and watch listen for the snap/spark. Oh ya you may want to hold the wire with pliers of some description.
Your compression should be fine that's not the issue here.
Keep us posted man, we'll get ya going.

Commando

I would double check the wiring, could be a short somewhere, causing the battery to discharge.

fastdakota84

Ok guys, here's the update. I checked for spark with another inline and still didn't light up, so, I'm not getting any spark. I even pulled a wire, held it to a ground while cranking, and still no spark. I'm a little stumped because it looks as I am getting voltage to the coil, unless I'm checking it wrong. I turned the ign to "on", and I put the ground lead to a ground on the body, and the positive lead to the positive terminal of the coil and it's reading 12V. Or, are supposed to put the (-) lead to the (-) terminal on the coil and the (+) to (+)? If that's the case, I have no voltage reading. It runs through an Summit Ignition Box.

The coil came with a ballast resistor, and it's not wired up to it, but that should keep if from sparking to the distributor should it? It's all new ignition.

scotts74birds

If I'm reading you right, you put the [-] of the coil to a body ground? If so, that is wronger than 2 boys humping! Is this Summit box you refer to a MSD style box, or a mopar electronic style? I thought the coil [-] would go to the ignition box. The negative of the coil is used as the switched end of the coil circuit [points or electronically controlled] to "collapse" the magnetic field in the coil and generate the high-voltage discharge to the distributor.

fastdakota84

The Summit ignition box is the same as an MSD ignition. It has two wires that connect to the coil out of the box and another that goes to a switched 12V source, and of course (+) and (-) battery connection.

No, how I checked for voltage to the coil was using a voltmeter, the black goes to ground (body/engine ground) and the red goes to either terminal of the coil, which should read 12 V?

Barfly

Here are some links to articles I found while trouble shooting my truck.
I have no idea if they will apply to yours, but it can't hurt to look.

Electronic Ignition
See the end of the article for a basic wiring diagram.

Pressure Regulator
These are expensive, I was lucking and only hard to replace the diaphragm.

Dakota Wiring Diagram
This is for the '90 I'm driving but you might search around this site for your truck.

Good Luck
Joe.

fastdakota84

Thanks Barfly. The Summit Ignition Box is wired the same as the Mopar ignition. I actually ordered that same pressure regulator today! I was told that one works better for converting to EFI to Carb using the EFI pump. It can handle the pressures better. I do have a FSM for my 99, it helped alot!

scotts74birds

The neg of the coil does NOT go to a chassis ground, it must be switched. The SMALL black wire from the ignition box connects to the neg of the coil, and is the ONLY wire on the coil neg. Do you have the manual?