josehf34

Hi guys!

On my fury restoration plans I have in mind to swap the TF727 to an A518 and I want to get a mild engine setup, something like a powerful daily driver with a very smooth idle, good mpg and cruising but with lots of power at WOT. I was thinking initially about the posibility to put a super prepped Hughes heads on my 360 SB, high compression pistons (to get something like 12:1 CR with iron heads to be able to run on pump gas with water methanol injection and CNG) and Hughes race valve job but a friend recommended me to consider a 440 Big Block has an option, especially if planned to be able to run on CNG and he told me that a 360 will have to work harder to move a car of 4800 Lb and will spend more fuel and time to get the same results and will need a rebuild earlier than the 440.

I don't know what to think about this but I'm plenty sure that build a 440 will cost a lot more than made some modification to me recently rebuild 360 and I will must modify other parts like A518 bell housing, engine supports etc.

Skwerly

Unfortunately, great power, WOT, and wonderful gas mileage almost never walk hand in hand. 12:1 compression and mileage? You’d have to be pretty crafty to get that to work.

TVLynn

Pump gas and injection is not going to work with 12/1 comp. CNG only & 11/1 maybe with iron heads. Super prepped heads are a waste on street motor. just clean up and good three angle valve job YOU need torque to move that big Fury.

josehf34

I made a mistake when calculating the compression ratio on the 360. The maximum compression ratio that I can get without milling heads or modifying deck clearance is 11.36:1 so that will be my objetive or maybe only 11:1. About the water methanol injection, I personally know a chevy with high compression ratio and running pump gas with a mixture of 60% water 40% methanol. Why do you think that this will not work?

I start to like the idea of run on CNG after viewed some local projects but I must to be able to run on pump gas too without problems

I usually drive slowly, but in the highway sometimes I love to feel that great torque at WOT (not too much speed), I want to improve better performance but not so far like race performance. Can this be made conservating a "decent" MPG (like 10-12 in town and 13-15 in highway)?

What kind of upgrades can be made to improve better low rpm torque? I considered the super prepped heads because has smaller chamber size and are fast burn heads so the performance will be considerably better

I think the 440 will be the better option due to it is a torque monster but requires too much money, modifications and the fuel MPG would be horrible even with a thermoquad, the A518 and 11:1 Compression ratio

josehf34

Hi guys

I started to like the idea to swap the SB360 to a BB440 and run on CNG but I'll want to build the engine as a torque monster with smooth idle (I don't like the sound of a rough idle unless if is from a B or E body), not a high rpm performance engine.

Can this be possible?
Which camshaft, pistons (high compression) and heads will be ok to do the job?

I think an edelbrock performer intake and thermoquad carburetor will be a good intake setup.

Can I expect even 9 or 10 mpg on town with this engine setup and the A518?
What numbers (HP and Torque) can I expect from this BB setup?

Sorry for all those questions, I've never worked with a big block so this is a new world for me but I want to explore it

Mr.4spd

Assuming the cost of the build is similar, you'd be power ahead to start with more inches. With a reasonable street engine 1hp per cubic inch is common, so the 440 is already 80hp ahead of the 360. Of course the 440 weighs more etc., pick your poison.

RacerHog

Maybe a few other question will help you decide....

CNG and Performance dont really go together to well....
Why do you need a Bi-Fuel?
Do you really need performance?

We have seen a large drop in power in CNG units time and time again...
CNG is not known for its performance...
Dont let the Octane Rating fool you... Thats not what your dealing with...

josehf34

I've seen some Fords here with a 351W running on cng and they seems to have good performance ("good times on 1/4 mile") on cng, according to a dyno test that I saw days ago, while running on CNG the WHP power drops between 7 - 9% compared with premium gas WHP so I can be happy with that power drop.

The main reason to want to go bi-fuel is that gas here is expensive crap, very low AKI octane rating so I can't do too much on my 360 without installing something like water methanol injection, the second reason is the price, here the GGE on cng costs 1.5$ so I think "if I can pay less with a bigger engine and more power than my 360, sounds like a good deal".

About the performance: I don't want a 12 seconds car because the Fury is my daily driver but sometimes I think that will be awesome to have more power on the highway or going up a hilly highway, just to have more fun on my living room with wheels

Any recommendation will be appreciated to make a correct decision

RacerHog

You will have to add on the weight of the fuel storage to get the same amount of GGE's So your 6% loss just gained you a weight mass of about 700LBS to get the same GGE per gallon....
The BTU is alot less for cng than it is for Unleaded 87 fuel.
And Burning BTU's is Power... Plan and simple...

I do agree that CNG is Cheaper then Gasoline... Both have there time of fuel shortage although... Mostly during the winter mounts where their is higher demands for supply's....

One day CNG will get to be the same price as gasoline, Based on the demand for it....

CNG can be made to Run Hard...But most of those are Dedicated systems and not an Bi-Fuel....
Why people run a Methanol mix is to cool the cylinder trying to keep detonation away.... Witch tells you the 102-105 Octane rating is not the answer..

So here you are at the cross roads... CNG or Gasoline?
IF there is more of a plentiful amount of CNG to get there. Go that rough.
But Build the engine CNG specific to run on CNG for it's best performance. and your done.
Our Ford Crown Vic CNG cars run great... Gutless... But run ok... I have had it at the drags a few time.....Dose not run as hard as our Nolead Cars...Looses every time.... No oil Contamination (Sourt a speak) from liquid fuel. Oil Change can be longer between changes...

Bottom line.... I think your going to break even what ever way you go.
Gasoline.... Crap over there....
CNG..... Weight that you add will off set your range to get the same GGE'S
MPG... Little change.....

Keep us posted...
Just food for thought.

josehf34

Thank you for take the time to reply

The CNG is only an idea but If I can do something good with my 360 I'll forget the idea of run on CNG with the 440. But for the moment here's a good oportunity to discuss the issue and come to some interesting conclusions.

If I install the CNG I'll use type 3 or 4 tanks, not heavy type 1 (that I'll kill my suspension), about the BTU 1gal of gas has 114000 BTU (but gasoline with ethanol only has 111840 BTU) and 1 CNG GGE has 116100 BTU, the main reason of power loss with CNG is that the flame propagation speed of the CNG is slower than gas flame speed so this fuel requires a programmable ignition advance that work only with CNG and will adjust the ignition curve for the new fuel while the car is running on it.

About the decision of what fuel will I run, I can only response that I can run on gas or bifuel CNG Gas but CNG only not (too risky).


So let's start with this question: is there a way (not very expensive way) to prepare my 360 to get a more decent torque, smooth idle and decent mpg or definitely would be better to consider the 440?

RacerHog

440 will have more torque... Hands Down...

RacerHog

Type 1 Tank holds up allot better... and you can re-cert them... The others you have to just replace if there compromised or expire on there cert.
Weights not a problem with the type 1's...Nothing a Dana 60 and some 4x4 spring cant handle..

josehf34

Are you sure that the suspension can handle without problems a type 1 tank? I know my fury gas tank when is full of gas, weight something like 170lb, but a type 1 tank seems to be excesive.

Right now I'm looking if I can find a 440 block in my country, some truckers still using 400 and 440 on their Dodge trucks but they don't sell it

I've read that aluminum heads works great in the 440 and drastically reduces engine weight but is necessary to use more compression than with iron heads or the power will drop, is this true?

If I don't find a 440 what can I do to my 360? in this moment has stock heads, stock pistons (block bored 0.02" over) and stock camshaft

RacerHog

Sure the suspension will handle the load if you install a Dana 60 and some 4x4 springs.... You will have to add a few tanks to get enough CNG to equal 18-20 Gallons of fuel for storage.

The bigger the better....

Thought you were looking for street more than racing....

You can always do what you have..... It just depend's on what you are really after..
You should be able to get with one of your importer / exporters in your country and have one shipped in?

josehf34

18-20 Gallons on CNG? that's a lot of gas, I can be happy with 8 or 10 Gallons, my idea with the CNG is only for city, on the highway is other history because I can use the CNG until it runs off.

Yes I'm able to buy a 440 block in USA but is a heavy block (about 550 pounds only the block) so first I must look here. You're right I'm looking for a good street machine not a racing car but is a bit embarrassing be passed by a stock ford 289 in a hill like if I were parked, you know what I'm talking about

RacerHog

You cant get very far with that... That like the size of the tank in our Hondas over here in the states. 6to8 GGE's is it.

What was the 289 In?
Put 4800 lbs on the back of that 289 and I bet it's tong starts hanging out....

RacerHog

Anyway...as you can tell I'm not a big fan of Bi-Fuel.... I just dont like the idea of trying to "meet in the middle" on tune-ups.... Never had it work for us very well....

Trust me when I say " I understand your points" I truly do.

You have to stay up on your tune ups with those things. Very hard on Ignition systems.

I like the dedicated build for these types...

Once you finally decide on what your going to build... Lets chat somemore...

Welcome to the Jungle:
These are all CNG Powered...


Keep us posted

josehf34

That little 289 is on a Ford Panel 1955 with cng (almost stock, just headers and 4 bbl holley double pumper), is from a neighbor and I always hate when he passed my on the way to home, I feel like I have a four cylinder instead a 360

I know that I can't go so far with a little CNG tank but, I can refill CNG almost in all the gas stations. I would be very happy to get a bigger CNG tank but it doesn't fit into my fury trunk on functional position and bigger equals heavier with a type 1, I understand your recommendation about the suspension but, I can't get out of my mind the idea that is a very heavy dead mass in the trunk.

Don't worry about that, I perfectly understand that you don't like bi-fuel systems, a lot of people just doesn't like the idea of running on CNG no matters if is a bi-fuel or just CNG.

About the bi-fuel system tune up, the first time could be a headache but fortunately I've some experience dealing with them (I don't work with CNG but I constantly fix not properly installed systems in some mopars and chevys for friends). The old systems requires a lot of constantly tune up, just a dirty air filter could be a reason to tune again the entire system. But nowadays there's systems that works like a very simple injection system, itself tunes up according to drive conditions, engine status and can be computer programmed.

Right know I continue looking for a 440 on my country, at the moment I don't have results but I found this 440 shop, maybe can be a good option in case that I decide to import the engine.

RacerHog

Question.... What is the Octane rating were you are at? For Gasoline?

josehf34

Is 82 - 83 AKI (with 10% of ethanol). Here most of turbo car has to run with water methanol injection or premium (90 AKI with 10% ethanol too) with rich mixture.

demetri

The reason why CNG makes less power than gasoline has nothing to do with the BTU/lb. The reason is that the gaseous fuel displaces air, so your volumetric efficiency drops. You can try to compensate with increased compression ratio, but then you cannot have dual fuel option.

I had seen a real cool system for propane: They used the propane to cool the intake air, as the fuel evaporated, and recover some of the lost power. But I do not know if this approach ever reached commercial status, and do not know if that is feasible for CNG.

Since you are not interested in all out performance, I think the 440 is over-kill. Also, 440's do not mix well with the later 4 speed automatic transmissions, so it will be hard to get good low speed acceleration AND good gas mileage. If you want more mid range acceleration, I would go with the 360, use a later 4 speed auto, plus a 3.54 differential gear. I would stay with gasoline to keep your life simple. You can use a 10:1 compression ratio, and if you run into poor gasoline, retard the timing a bit, or keep your foot off the floor.

josehf34

Why do you say that that big blocks doesn't likes 4 speed automatic transmissions? I've read so many times that Big block with A518, 2500 RPM stall converter and lock up is a great setup.

I already found a 440. Is a rebuilt engine, 0.02" bored over block, stock camshaft, stock pistons, stock heads, stock 4bbl iron intake manifold and only 200 miles on it since rebuilt. The guy is asking to me 600 US $ plus crate and shipping. Does it sounds like a good deal?

About the CNG cooling feature, is true, the CNG Regulator must be connected to a hot cooling line or it gets frozen. But I still thinking that the reason of power loss with CNG is the flame speed because Hydrogen desplaces more air than CNG but it can generate more power than premium gasoline mainly due to the three time fastest flame speed. Greater flame speed equals to less ignition advance and then equals to more efficient combustion cycle

demetri

From what I have heard, even if you get an adapter to the 4 sp transmission, the torque of the 440 is too much for the A518. Too much torque. But let's let the people that have actually done it to tell us what they have experienced, since I have never really done this conversion.

The issue of power loss with CNG is loss of volumetric efficiency, as said earlier. Any issues with combustion speed can be adjusted with ignition timing.

"Stock cam"? Stock, for what year? What compression ratio? If you get an engine close to HP specs of 1968-1969 (CR ~10:1), that would be a good performer for premium gasoline (92-95 octane or better). But the A518 may not last long. An A727 is a different story, and with a 2.76 or 2.94 you will get a real nice high speed car, but if you are not into that, you will just waste your money on gas.

josehf34

Now I got your point about Big Block and 4 speed. I've read that the most recommendable is never engage the lockup at WOT unless if a upgrade clutch kit is installed in the tranny

About the engine year I don't have idea, maybe a photo can help you to identify it, so it is.

RacerHog

As long as it is complete and in good working order. That sounds like a fair price. What it is going to cost for shipping?

demetri

The year of the block is usually stamped in the front of the engine. I think the letter "E" is 1968, and it goes from there on alphabetically, but you will have to check on that. The cylinder heads could be from different years. The ...906 is the 68 and on head, and these are known to flow well. I have heard that later model heads flow well too. But the compression ratio is defined by what pistons they use. This is important, and you have to know that. If you have 8:1 compression ratio, it will not do so well. The next thing is what cam they used. Is this the OEM 260-268 cam? (this is a good low end torque cam for good fuel economy and reasonable top end).

josehf34

I don't think that could be a pre 70s 440 because according to the seller it was on a 72 charger but It went totaled in an accident. About the camshaft the seller only said that the engine is mostly stock so I think the camshaft is the OEM

The shipping will cost maybe 500 - 550 bucks but I'm going to negotiate the shipping price maybe I can get a good deal. About the 440 setup I was thinking in something like this:

-Thermoquad 800 cfm
-Edelbrock RPM performer aluminum intake
-HEI ignition system, mallory 58.000 V ignition coil, MSD spark plug wires
-Stock camshaft (I don't know if maybe an upgraded camshaft can give me better results in power and mpg)
-High compression KB pistons (I was thinking to have 10.6:1 compression to run CNG and premium gas. But I've read that with aluminum heads the compression must be raised one point to equals the compression with iron, so according to this 11.6:1 compression will be correct but it sounds excessive, or, am I wrong?)
-Indy non-ported EZ aluminum heads
-Torque converter with lockup and 2000 RPM stall
-Headers

TVLynn

Is that the place in Azusa off the 60 freeway ? Went their years ago won $20 in free play From some poor kid who was all ready to claim his $20 free play

RacerHog

Ya, Lynn.... That's the place....Back in our day's it was called the "ShowBoat" But it was Miniature Golf and Video Games.....

You know the place....

josehf34

Guys I want to consider the posibility of stroke my 360 instead of replacing it with a 440. The saved money will be great to do other stuff to the car. But I've a question: What stroker setup can be build with a bore of 4.02", having low rpm great torque and smooth idle?

I don't have any experience with stroker engines and I had read some statements that appear to be myths, these are some:

-stroker engine will not last long than a non stroker engine
-stroker engine can easily crack the block
-stroker engine always has rough idle
-stroker engine works hotter than non-stroker
-stroker engine can only be build to high rpm applications

Are those statemens true or not?