Guys -

I'm planning on a suspension upgrade for my 74 Charger. Trying to use a one stop shop approach. My mechanic recommends Firmfeel, and they you have complete packages.

Basically this what I'm looking at: http://www.firmfeel.com/b_body_mopar...package_3.html

Any other places I should be looking.

BTW - while there's nothing "wrong" with what I've currently got, except a lot of it's 40 years old and I think the car can handle a little better. If it matters, planning on custom subframe connectors (all of the commercial ones require notching the floor pan, and my chassis guys says he can fabricate a set that can go from the to rear rails with no cuts.

Thanks,

Archer

 

If there is any change in the original suspension geometry, I would run away from it fast. Chrysler did a great job designing suspensions, and while it is conceivable that somebody can do a better job, there is no guarantee that these folks did a better job. Many of these folks have no background in designing suspensions, and they just build something that fits, and its super stiff, and hope for the best.


In addition, assuming the suspension geometry has not changed from stock, if the new torsion bars are stiffer than stock, w/out any change on the back, the stiffer front roll stiffness can make the car understeer more. If the rear sway bar kit and leaf springs are too stiff by comparison to the front, the car will oversteer more. Before you put your life on the line, make sure that these folks know what they are doing, and have tuned all the components properly. Stiffer suspension, when properly done, may improve overall handling and cornering, but the ride will suffer. If you do not drive the car in a race circuit, the cost may outweigh the benefit.


If there is no modification in the suspension geometry, and you are not going to drive in a tight race circuit, and/or you are not driving in sharp mountain roads, I would still ask ... why? Just replace bushings and ball joints, and your suspension is as new as it was back in 73. Tubular upper A-arms are fine, but so were the original.

 

I like these Guys.....
http://www.springsnthings.com/index.htm

Might call these guys and see what they might still have... ?????
http://www.globalwest.net/

 

I remember Doug Global West. Knew his wife Deanna...
You can't go wrong with Firmfeel

 

TV and Bob -

Thanks, as always.
Globalwest doesn't seem to have a lot of stuff for the Charger

demitri -

Chrysler screwed up a lot of things on every production line (the uni-body thing being most notable). Suspension really wasn't that great in those years. That's why the after market exists. Most production items have to be a compromise between "performance" and production costs, as well as meeting a bunch of different needs for different customers.

The Charger's drive train hardly resembles production, in power, weight or balance and hasn't for over 35 years. Needless to say, it's about time some parts of the suspension were addressed. Yes, technology has changed.

Archer

 

Ya good folks.... I dealt with them in the small shop...lol

Archer.. Last time I did my suspension on my 1977 Dodge D150 I used all McQuay-Norris Chassis stuff.... It has held up pretty darn well and I also run a larger tire then the OEM 32X12.50X15 and it dose not seem to care one little bit.
Just food for thought..

 

I know little about the B body, but C body and Imperial suspensions were the best in the industry for large cars. While there was a lot of compromise for mass production, also mass production allows for cost reduction in many areas where small modern production runs cannot match. Also, the mass production cars had to meet 50K mile warranties, while modern after market rarely do. Additionally, OEM's had vast resources to test their suspension geometries under many conditions, a luxury that after market does not (but some may be equipped with modern simulation software that can reduce the necessary effort). Now, most US OEM's had little interest of doing any of that, but I think Chrysler was more than a little better. Finally, most of the aftermarket is aimed at people that rarely know what they want and even more rarely they can evaluate what they ended up with.


Having said that, if you really-really know what aspects of driving performance you want to enhance, at the expense of whatever else, there are certainly ways that you can accomplish that. But without really knowing what you want, and without having expert guidance, you may be running the risk of installing components that look good but deteriorate overall handling and ride.


I had seen a youtube video of a guy that had a "modernized" charger with modern suspensions, brakes, etc. He said, "he wanted a car with modern drivability". They had a video of the car driving down the freeway, with the camera just behind the driver shoulder. You could see his body shaking up and down, and his head sinking into his shoulders, as the car was driving over the concrete joints on the highway. That looked like an awful deterioration to me over the original car.

 

Point somewhat taken.... But you cant get those old OEM parts like that anymore... Aftermarket or remakes are about all you can find. Plan and simple.
So calling it an Upgrade or a replacement might be the same in some folks eyes but not always someone else's....
On another note... You could have all that perfectly good stuff and the new alignment guy messes it all up because he dose not understand the old school alignment process.
Now with that said. Do I like the Chrysler suspension of yesteryear? sure! But I also like some of the improved parts that are out there on the market For suspension and handling. You just have to use it for its intended use.
For us Mopar guys, the pickins are getting mighty slim....

Just my 2 cents

 

Demitri -

Youtube is wonderful thing because any idiot with a video camera or cell phone can post whatever he likes. I haven't seen the video, and have no intention of looking for it, but it does beg the question, was he looking for ride, acceleration or handling?

The fact is that there is absolutely no comparison between factory issue muscle cars from the 70's or earlier compared to whats available today. While that may be part of their charm, we really have ot be honest about it.

Can vintage cars be made to drive / ride like their modern counterpart? Well, pretty darn close, the only limiting factor is usually money. I've been around long enough to know what's possible, practical and unfortunately, what it can cost.

Yes, the driver does need to know what end result he's looking for. In vintage terms, a dedicated 1/4 mile car will typically not be the best road handler and vice versa. That's where choice are made and are hopefully correct.

I'm been around these things long enough to have more than a passing appreciation of what was, but I'm honest enough to admit that compared to more modern offerings, they really were, well, crap from a driver's perspective.

Bob -

Back in the day, exactly how many people (people, meaning hot rodders) stayed with factory issue? Put another way, how long did it take most "kids" to start wrenching their cars to "correct" factory issue? Heck, we're still doing, but now we use computers more than wrenches.

Archer

 

I would agree... Usually always turns out better than what you started out with..

 

I do not recall exactly what this fellow wanted to optimize for, but if you stiffen up the suspension on any car to that extend (and essentially is no longer a suspension) it will handle well (at least most of the time, I have seen others that messed up big time, and despite the stiffness still handled horribly). But that is hardly an improvement. Improvement is when you manage to get your good handling while still maintaining at least a reasonable level of comfort. A car that beats you up after the first 50 miles of driving (and/or beats itself up, because there will be probably huge loads on many suspension and structural members) is fundamentally worthless as transportation (remember, he claimed he wanted something to drive on a daily basis and expected it to be above the old standards).

As for ride of modern cars ... well. I have not ridden in one lately that will even remotely give the high speed ride in my Imperial (which granted, its far from a muscle car). OK, the Imperial will not corner like my friend's Lexus IS250, but it will sure out handle any SUV. I bet most C-body Chryslers will ride better than most modern cars, and a C body, well driven, will corner well (at least in high speed circuits). In fact, most modern expensive luxury cars (i.e., benzes, bimmers) give the ride of a race car of the 70's or 80's. They have super stiff suspensions and very low profile (and expensive) tires that hold the road so well, but ride is much to be desired, not to mention tire noise. And good luck trying to service them when they get old.

Old muscle cars of the 60's? Have not driven one, but I would expect the Charger, being a more expensive car compared to the typical Mustangs and Camaros, and being only slightly smaller than a C-body, to not be too bad. Some well equipped RT Chargers or GTX's were fairly expensive back then. I would expect that a well rebuilt stock suspension, with a good set of modern radials (not too large, not too small, and with 65-70% profile, rubber band tires do not work well with old style suspensions) will do a reasonable job in terms of handling and ride. Stiffen it up a bit on the front, a mild rear end sway bar, and I would expect it would actually handle reasonably well. Will it be equivalent to a modern rear independent suspension car? Probably not, especially on a rough road, but it will be more fun to drive. Now, deviate too much, and you may end up with some scary ride. Most people rarely drive such creations fast enough in public winding roads to really explore the handling of their creation, which may be a good thing.

 

D -

Yeah, fine, thanks.

What I was looking for were options in the price/quality arena and not how to set up or tune a suspension. Think I have that part covered. And, all bushing will be changed with the suspension upgrade.

You may want to do a little more research. The b-bodies (and c-bodies) were "more expensive" than the pony cars because of the sheer amount of metal used (and certain options, mostly trim). Most suspension packages used the same technology as their smaller counterparts. The added mass and wheel base (flex) became the "issue".

BTW - The Charger has approximately the same weight as my 2011 Challenger. The Changer will accelerate faster due to an extra 200+ HP, and while both "feel" similar on a flat straight highway at speed, in all other driving regards, there's really no comparison.

Look sorry, if any of this sounded rude, but it's kinda like asking about finding a correct paint code and having someone go into detail about body prep.

Guys -

Right now, Firmfeel seems to be the front runner, especially since they can tailor a package to the customer's needs - but they are pricy. Was hoping someone had experience with other companies and price options. For example right now JEGS has a set of XHD rear leafs for about $215, but I have no idea "about" them.

If I had unlimited funds, this would be a no brainer.

Thanks,

Archer

 

Archer, what I am warning you about is that you may end up putting a fresh coat of paint on a rusted car. Just because you are installing newly built components, it does not mean that your 73 Charger will drive like your 2011 Challenger. Furthermore, your 73 Charger may not be driving how it did in 73 if you have worn out bushings, tired leaf springs, and tired ball joints.


The term "suspension technology" is not very well said. In suspensions, it is all about tuning the geometry and spring rates. Unless you add rear independent suspension or other high tech tricks such as active suspension, a "modern technology" suspension is no different from an old, properly tuned suspension. The suspension of a 69 Chevy Caprice and a 69 Chrysler New Yorker may appear similar, but it is the quality of the refinement hidden in the details of the geometry and spring rates that make one handle well and the other not so well. If the new components you get lack the refinement, you may go back to Chevy standards, and not even know it until the time comes you reach an emergency situation.


Now, having said that, old suspensions were tuned for the tires they had back then. There are ways you can re-tune your suspension for the modern tires, and then you may have a real improvement. But you have to make sure your supplier has done his homework, and you don't end up in a Chevy.

 

D -

We've reached stalemate, one of us isn't listening. Considering you just repeated what I said in my prior posts and disregarded other points, I don't think it's me.

BTW - Firmfeel is a Mopar shop. You're the one who is bringing SUVs and Chevys into the mix.

If anyone else has any thoughts, they would be appreciated.

Archer

 

i had a 1965 300 L. it had a little stiffer sus than an a new yorker. and you could really feel the diff. but cant remember the exact bar dia diff. but i think it was .003-.004 bigger. all so by raising the front as little as 1 inch made a diif in the stiffness. my uncle had a 65 chrysler wagon he put the new, 1973, radial tires on it. and wallowed around like wineo on sat night. but that type of tire are much better now days.

 

I think you will like the Firmfeel set up....

 

Bob -

I've been talking with Dick at FF. Doing modest front end upgrades (1 1/4" sway bar, 1.06" torsion bars and aluminum K frame/torsion bar bushings, new shocks plus a few other odds and ends as needed). In the rear, thinking their heavy duty leafs, sway bar etc. Only thing we're trying to figure out is how to use their sway bar kit and retain the old traction bars and keep the same ride height.

Still have to schedule the subframe connectors.

I'll let you know how it goes, once the parts come in and set up.

Archer

 

Sounds like a good Plan... Hope your taking lots of before and after pictures?
Keep us posted.... Would love to see and hear of the results... Are you also doing a brake system UpGrade also at this time?

 

I just need to know if on my '85 Plymouth Gran Fury will an A-body or B-body 8 3/4 rears work. I'm going to use my rear springs. Currently 7 1/4 is there. I have these two rear ends and just want to upgrade the '85 for drag racing.

 

Bob -

Thinking about it. The car has front disks and rear drums. The only issue I've had so far has been the tires loosing traction on hard stops. In other words, the brakes themselves are working fine.

Suspension and subframe is first, rear gears and brakes possibly next.

If I could find a one stop shop for a front and rear upgrade, that would factor in. Some of the bigger companies have front upgrades, but the rear seems to be an issue. May have to mix and match if I go that route.

Thanks,

Archer

 

I'm Sure you have already checked with CPP Brakes for a kit?

"Allen" I have no idea... You just have to measure it and see....

 

Guys -

Update:
The suspension mods are finally done.
Basically everything was upgraded from the rear-spring-shackles to the front sway-bar. All new bushings (aluminum K-frame and tranny brace) and custom sub-frame connectors. Did not want to cut into the floor pans.

The car has a new, higher ride height on all 4 corners. giving a more aggressive stance. While everything is stiffer, the ride really isn't noticeably harsher. Body roll is almost non-existent (this is on a 4200# B-body). Firmfeel pretty much nailed it. Brakes were also refreshed.

I said earlier that there was nothing "wrong" with the original stuff - well that wasn't the case. The rear springs were shot and their spring eyes out of round. Most of the bushings were also in pretty bad shape. Pretty much everything "needed" to be upgraded.

So far so good.





Archer

 

Looks great for an old bucket of bolts !!!!!!

I see you stuck with the old classic T/A's... Are they working a little better now ? Or do they still leave you with the "Oh Chit" moment?

 

Bob -

I haven't done any hard breaking (yet), but on turns they are grabbing MUCH better.
The leafs should settle about 1/2" in a year or so.

BTW - it wasn't a straight bolt in. There was a lot of welding and fabrication involved, but the result was worth it. Firmfeel has great products and my mechanic knows his stuff.

Oh, and the front half of the leaves were 21" - that created a few headaches - thanks Chrysler...

Archer

 

Archer
I sure like your Charger, as I read your thread I'm thinking about a Roadkill episode with a clapped out 68 Charger. If you haven't seen it go 20 minutes in and enjoy!


I realize a lot of the steering is done with the throttle but the big block Mopar is working.

 

The Charger looks awesome, i also have a 74 that i put new leaf springs on (from Jegs, the old ones were very relaxed), but now the tire looks too far back into the wheel well. too make matters worse (or not?) i feel like i really didn't get any additional lift but my dad thinks its fine as far as the springs being way better.

 

AMD -

Ah, wheels too far back...

I did another thread a while back questioning the size of leaf springs on my car. Apparently, MOST "B" bodies have 22" front halves, but thanks to Chrysler's infinite wisdom, SOME 74 "B" bodies came with 21" or 21.25" fronts. The odds are, like mine, yours has the shorter front half leaf springs - effectively pushing your rear wheels back in the wells.

You have two options. You can try modifying the front perches (spring mounts) or drill a new centering hole on the leaves about 1" farther back and reset the spring.

Regarding the height - that's always going to be a problem with "off the shelf" springs. What I did with Firmfeel, was send them a number of pictures of the car and told them I wanted to keep the same ride height, while loosing the the extended shackles. Dick said you need about 1.5" arch more than the standard height and he had the springs made to that spec. He pretty much nailed it. While it's a little higher than before, with the expected settling of 1/2" or so over the next year, we should be spot on.

Hope that helped.

Archer

 

Thanks, drilling a hole in the leaf sounds like a nightmare, but a new perch may be an option. i wonder if air shocks would provide the lift i want?

 

AMD -

I used Gabriel Hi-Jackers back in the day, and they worked for a number of reasons. Not sure about the stuff that's out there today. Since SS spring aren't a good option for the street, using separate lines on the air shocks allow you to tweak the load to help on launch. BUT - even with the add-ons, you're starting with a 318, which doesn't have a lot of torque out of the hole.

Regarding the springs, a good spring shop (or mechanic) with a drill press can make short order of the extra locator hole. The perch may or may not be an option - don't ask me how I know.

Archer

 

Thanks again, i do have a 360 that i was going to rebuild but i'm thinking of using it for a core and getting a crate engine.