Chelle

Looking for aluminum head suggestions ..... (and I absolutely DO NOT WANT ANY JUNK FROM 440 SOURCE.... I can't express that enough)
So here's what we're working with here.
440bbl bored .40 over
.509 purple shaft cam
Steel crank
Currently running a set of worked over 346 cast heads
Headman ceramic coated headers
Edelbrock dual carb aluminum intake with 2x 600cfm edelbrock carbs
(If you need any more numbers just holler and I'll try to tell you what I know.. if I don't know I can ask the ol man...lol &#128513
Throwing around the idea of switching to aluminum heads
Looking to buy already assembled... ready to bolt on

HERE'S WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO AVOID
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Not wanting to have to change 500 other things. Wanting to get as close to bolt on and go and we can.
And ABSOLUTELY has to run on pump gas.
Any suggestions?

Archer

Chelle -

What's your compression ratio?
What RPM range do you live in (and rear gears)?
Stick or automatic, if auto, stall speed?
What are you doing with the car?

Both Edelbrock and Trickflow make excellent heads, with TF having an out of the box advantage (CNC porting). However the odds are unless you're over 10:1 and spend a fair amount of time above 5000 rpm, all you're getting with aluminum heads are looks.

Nothing wrong with that, and based on your previous choices, that may not matter.

The 509 was a bad choice 40 years ago and even worse now, given other options. Too much duration for lift, IOWs, too lopey an idle and not enough power. 1200 cfm is over carbureted for a 440 (even with a progressive linkage. yes same reason a six pack wasn't a good idea vs a good single 4V).

How do I know this? I've been playing the same game for the last two years. After spending hours on the phone with Edelbroack, Trickflow, Compcams, Mancini and a number of engine builders, all of whom would be more than happy to sell me anything I wanted, they was also pretty adamant and not seeing any real gains in seat of the pants or ETs.

See, you said Well both the Eddys and TF are direct bolt ons and both look cool, but to be able to use the increased air flow, you might have to change a few other things.

Archer

Chelle

Thanks for the reply and I'm going to try to remember everything.... bear with me... I helped my old man build it but I'm not great with remembering all the numbers..lol

What's your compression ratio? I'm going to say the compression is close to 10:1... usually we run high octane gas with a bottle of octane booster to keep away from spark knocking...

What RPM range do you live in (and rear gears)? When drag racing he usually shifts around 6k but when cruising she's usually floating around 3,600-3,800 ... 4:10 gears in the rear but have been shuffling the idea of changing that to get better fuel economy... we put that gear in because we occasionally do drag race

Stick or automatic, if auto, stall speed? 3,500 stall automatic, column shifter, with a 727 reverse valve body

What are you doing with the car? (Truck lol) we mainly built it to cruise and car show but we do like to go drag racing too. (So I guess you could call it a street/strip hot rod..) She actually does really well on the track as is...Or she did... She weighs right at 4000lbs and was running a 7.70 flat (pretty constant) on the 1/8th mile... Since we rebuilt it last year it's been having a hesitation about half track that we can't figure out but my personal opinion is..... the guy helping do the motor work is old school.. and he did a little grinding and tweaking on the heads and I think it hurt it... I believe with the correct set up on it would do better.

The 509 was a bad choice 40 years ago and even worse now, given other options. 1200 cfm is over carbureted for a 440 (even with a progressive linkage).
We stayed with the .509 because thats what we ran in her for the past 10 years and it just did good on the track and the road... and it sounds good...the front carb is really just a dummy carb until we really get into it (it does have the slider thing.) Mainly (to be honest) wanted the 2 carb setup because it looks cool...lol.. So What would you suggest if we were to change the cam?

See, you said
Quote:
Not wanting to have to change 500 other things.
Well both the Eddys and TF are direct bolt ons and both look cool, but to be able to use the increased air flow, you might have to change a few other things.
what things would have to be changed to get the air flow. I have found out with the trick flow heads that we would have to change to a longer push rod (and please excuse my female ignorance ) but do you know why they would have to be longer? I'm just curious on that...

shewww... I hope I got all the numbers right and answered everything. So with all that ... what do you suggest?

Chelle

We have steel stamped rockers. Would we have to change that or will they be ok with aluminum heads

Chelle

I asked the old man ... well i read him what i has wrote and most of it was right ...YAY!
The only thing I got wrong was the compression on the truck ... he said right now it is about 8.5:1
I researched on a mopar tech page and it said if we went to the aluminum heads... that to run pump gas the compression needed to be around 9:5.1 so you were spot on with that.
he also said when cruising around ... which we normally do the rpm range is around 2,600-3,000 ... when we get her out out the interstate having to run 70 that's when she gets on up to the range I said.
but when he's drag racing he stalls her up 2,400rpm and he shifts at 5,800rpm... dang I was so close...lol
I think that's everything the rest of it I got right
We know the heads are not going to help anything just putting around but it should help when we do race...,right?

Archer

Chelle -

The cool factor not withstanding, you don't have enough compression to really take advantage of a hotter cam or better flowing heads; actually it's not really enough for the 509 with it's duration - but I do understand the nostalgia factor.

If any porting was done to the heads, calling Edelbrock will confirm that their heads out of the box will not buy you any time on the track.

Seriously doubt you need the octane boost with 8.5 compression, unless you over advanced the timing.

A single 750 - 850 double pumper on a dual plane intake would be the best for the street. Single plane if you plan on mostly racing. While the stamped rockers are "OK" going to an adjustable or even roller rocker could help.

If you want it more highway friendly, 3.55 gears would be optimal.

The TF heads have a slightly different geometry and you'll need their guidesand custom push rods. That's pretty standard with any after market head. New head bolts too.

But, while all of that makes sense on paper, it's your and your dad's car(truck), and the nostalgia thing might over rule any thing else - and in a lot of cases, it really should. I have things on my car that aren't optimal, just because that's what I used when I was racing. Yeah, it's the cool factor.

Everything else you said really makes perfect sense.

Look, I'm not an expert, but I've been threw the exactly same thing you're going through now, and while I didn't always like the answers I was getting - they did kinda make sense.

Look don't take my work for it. Call the head and cam companies (a few times) and ask them.

Good luck with it!

Archer

Chelle

Chelle

Anyways... there she is
we had discussed the compression and are planning on bringing it up to a minimum of 9:5.1
it is kind of low right now.. and yeah they have a fixed advance thing in the distributor. Not sure of the technical name for it but it keeps the timing advanced to a certain degree. And really it all depends on where we get the gas on whether or not we have to run octane booster... crappie gas. We try to get that ethanol free when we can. Sometimes she'll spark knock and sometimes she wont...
What cam would YOU suggest. Not sure if that was in the reply or not.. Still want her to hit a lick... nothing like the roar of a 440 coming down the road. It's a sound all its own.
THE rear end gear you mentioned was one of the ones me and my hubby had discussed. So there again you hit the mark.
Really we built the truck to enjoy it.. a lot of people now a days build them then trailer them everywhere or keep garaged all the time.
where's the fun in that? We drive this truck everywhere. Fishing, car shows, drag racing (we jack it up at the track and throw slicks on it and go) and as I said before she does good considering that she is a boat anchor. Lol
Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me.

Archer

Chelle -

The fun part really is the most important thing.
Going to a single 4V induction would certainly kill some of the cool factor.

So, it might come down to a "what do you and your hubby want?"

If you like the rough lopey idle, then just leave the 509.

If you wanted the most efficient ride, I'd look the the comp can extreme energy series, like this:

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=711&sb=2 OR MILDER.

BUT - if you have power breaks, you might need a hydro-boost system to get enough vacuum.

If you want "mopar-like", then this might work:
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=640&sb=2

It's a step down from what you have now.

The 3.55s would be the best over all gears, but if you like the launch the 4.10s give you, look into Gearvendors overdrive system. It will turn the 4.10s in to 3.23, so the best of both worlds, but will set you back about $3K.

The more I think about what you're saying, the more I'd just think about the over-drive and enjoy.

Archer

Chelle

The vacuum for the brakes runs directly to the intake.
You've definitely help clarify some things. We were originally leaning towards the trick flow heads and I believe that if we do make that leap that's what we will go with.
Another idea we had tossed around was just finding another rear end chunk (the whole pumpkin) and building it with the 3.55 gears ... change it out for our daily driving and then if we do decided to go drag race for the weekend just throw the truck up on the lift in the shop and swap out the chunk. It's not like we are at the track that often. It's just something to toy with.
oh and on the stamped rockers there is a REALLY good reason why we went with those.... With the adjustable and rollers they have to be adjusted where as the stamped doesn't. The reason why that is important is the brake booster sits about 3 or 4 inches above the valve covers. Literally in order to take the valve cover off on the drivers side we have to take the motor mounts loose and rock the motor down to get the dang valve cover off... it is a pain in the a$$. So the less we have to do that the better.
It has been a pleasure talking to you. Thank you (again &#128513 You have definitely been right on the same page with us as far as what we have discussed. And you have given us some things to consider.. Neither one of us have ever used aluminum heads so it's a new player in our ball park and that's where our main questions were growing from.. as far as if we were going to have to change a whole bunch of stuff just to do that.
But like I said we are definitely going to be changing the head gasket to raise the compression either way. Hopefully doing that will bring that old 440 to life. To be honest it's already fast enough for me but he's a man of course... lol
If you have any more suggestions we're all ears.
thanks for everything

Archer

Chelle -

Just one last thing about the heads, while I agree that the TF heads are a slight bit better breathing than the Eddys, they are tested with 600 and 700 lift cams - which you're not going to be anywhere near, not without rebuilding the short block for piston clearance anyway.

Bumping the compression will help with the oomph, just make sure your intake still fits after you change gaskets or mill the heads.

You're very welcome. Like I said, I've been going threw the exact same decision making process for the last few years - and almost pulled my hair out a few times!

Archer

Chelle

OK you lost me...
what do you mean? Also what cam are the eddys tested on?

TVLynn

You need the 4;10 gears minimum if you are keeping the 509 cam.. What size tires are you running ? You can also gain some compression with the choice of heads = smaller chamber, that would really be the only reason to change the heads

Archer

Chelle -

All I meant was that to get all the benefits from the TF heads, you need a pretty high lift cam, which you don't have. That can be come problematic because of valve to piston clearance - and no one can tell you that, it has to be measured on YOUR engine.

Sorry, I don't know what cam specs Edelbrock uses for advertising, but I'm sure you can find it.

To TV's point, the Eddy's Performer RPM heads come in 3 chamber sizes (75, 84, 88cc), and the TF's only come in 78ccs. And the smaller chambers would be used to bump the compression.

I do know a number of people using the 509 with gears in the 3.55 range. Would I do it, probably not, but it's been done. Again the reason is the duration. A lot of the newer profiles are cutting the duration and increasing the lift.

Archer

Iowan

I've been busy this weekend and stayed out of this discussion until now, if you put the TF heads and the Edlbrocks side by side there is no comparison. The TFs are that much better, they are exactly what they say they are. They will work with your older 509 cam.

Iowan

The are better of the seat than the Edlbrocks so I no why you need a bigger cam.

Archer

Iowan -

Sure they'll work, just not optimally. TF's thoughts, not mine.
It's also why they only sell a 600 lift cam for the 440.

Basically, you'd have to port the Eddy's to get to same performance as the TF out of the box.

Archer

Iowan

I've seen enough dropped valves , cracked heads, porous castings and excuses from Edlbrock to not give them a look in the first place.

One thing I would NOT plan on running them "out of the box" , tight guides, out of round seats and valves says your going to need to do a valve job on your new heads.
The TFs do work with stock stamped rockers, something you'd not use on a. 600 + lift cam.