RamCharger

hey there i have a perplexing problem. I bought a jasper rebuild 318 for my 86 2wd Ramcharger. the truck had the lean burn computer system in it. i put a new edelbrock performer intake, and a new edelbrock performer 600cfm carb on it. I have a mopar performance eletronic distributer kit. I followed the directions exactly. My problem is when the motor is at tdc according to the balancer the rotor is pointed at the 10 oclock position relative to the fire wall. it should be at approx 6.its like its 90 degrees off. the engine will fire, randomly. what am i missing guys! thank you!

Coronet 500

Try this:https://moparforums.com/forums/f6/i-...ed-318-a-2536/

or this:https://moparforums.com/forums/f7/ms...l-issue-11370/

Search 318 distributor and alot of stuff will come up.

bremereric

At TDC just make sure the rotor is turned to #1 spark plug wire and you will be fine. Rule of thumb is to point the rotor towards #1 cylinder at TDC.

440roadrunner

YES, please read my post on that thread linked

I would do the following as per that post:

1 ANY new/ unknown/ suspect engine I encounter, the very first thing I do is use a piston stop to confirm the timing mark has not slipped on the balancer

2You don't need to (to time engine) but it is possible to "walk" the distributor driver gear up out of it's seat by using a large screwdriver against the gear helix.

3You can actually time any V8 engine, as Bremer mentioned, by simply getting the engine on TDC, setting the vacuum can so it "has room" and then plug the no1 wire in wherever the rotor points

There are engines (v6's and some 4's/ 2 cyl , etc) that "matter" how the dist is set up, v8's are not one. The only reason a certain method is specified is:

so the assembly line folks can "wrench, repeat"

so the plug wires "lay" nice

so the tune-up mechanics see what they expect to see.

RamCharger

@440Roadrunner- Im gonna move the wires over as soon as i get some free time after work. do you have any tips on setting the timing alone? i cant see the cylinder from under the truck. ha.

thanks for all the tips guys the truck has me very frustrated at the moment!

440roadrunner

I don't get your question. You should not have to get under the truck to see the timing marks, or are you talking about finding/ setting TDC?

I think I posted in the other thread, but I ALWAYS check the timing marks for accuracy on an engine that may be suspect. This is a great time to learn

Get, buy, or make a piston stop, like this:

http://www.jerrybramlett.net/images/...stallation.jpg

Using it the first time, you may have to adjust the length, not critical. Be sure to lock (jam nut) the plunger securely

Pull the nu 1 plug, and wrench or bump the engine until the piston is "down a ways."

Pull off the battery ground for safety. Install the stop device

Wrench the engine normal rotation until the piston stops. You are NOT trying to stop the engine AT TDC, but rather BEFORE it gets there, IE the piston is hitting the stop "coming up" Not critical, for accuracy, you do not want the piston REAL close to the stop, so longer is better on the stop device. Be careful, be gentle, you don't want to damage the piston, nor bend the plunger.

OK with the no1 piston against the stop, make a temporary mark, pencil, etc, onto the balancer right under the TDC mark on the timing tab.

Now, rotate the engine in the opposite CCW direction, and do the same thing, until the piston stops make a second mark.

You will now have TWO temporary marks "some" distance apart. TRUE TDC will be halfway between, and if the original mark is accurate, that is where it will be.

Now if you change the position of the distributor gear, you simply need to bring the marks to TDC

BUT......to drop in the dist, you need to make sure you on the no1 COMPRESSION stroke. The easy way to do this is,

With the no1 plug out, bump the engine with a remote switch. WHEN you start to feel compression on your finger/ thumb stuck into no1, immediately be careful, and watch "the mark" which should be coming up. First few times, you may have to "go around" to see what you are feeling.

To set static timing, do NOT bring the engine up to TDC, but rather, set the marks where you WANT initial timing, IE 5, 10, 12* BTC, etc.

Now with the engine on compression stroke, and marks "where" you want timing, simply set the dist. in place, swing the dist. until the advance is in the clear, and the rotor pointing to no1 plug tower, AND the reluctor wheel tip centered in the pickup coil core. Easy way to "see" where the no1 tower is---I always put the cap on, and mark the dist. housing, then with cap off, put a light file mark in the top of the dist case rim.

When you learn to set static timing this way, the timing should be "close enough" that it will start and run!! You should not have to "argue" with timing to get the engine to fire. You will of course, have to check it with a light, and make minor changes.

RamCharger

Its running like a champ! followed your instructions and it fired right up! when i was talking about having to be under the truck it was because i cant get a wrench on it from the top to rotate it by hand. thanks for the help!

440roadrunner

Outstanding!!

jss672011

You can't just drop the dist in where you want the slot allows you to drop where you want, I am having the problem of cranking it up to TDC on cycle 2 after the intake valve opens on cylinder #1, '77 318, I then crank it until solid dampener mark is about 10degrees before the timing cover 0 mark. Rotor points straight to rad, If I go to 0 on cover then the rotor would point to about 8 or 9 o'clock on the dist. TDC rarely points me to 5 o'clock, I didn't not try the difference between 2 marks yet though. Something is off. Rotor points straight 10 degrees BTDC on timing cover.

Coronet 500

The slot the distributor fits into is the oil pump drive. If you take a large slot screwdriver and turn it clockwise it will climb up and you can move it into the position you require. When it drops down you should see that it will spiral back CCW, so you'll need to go one or two teeth further to get at the position you want. Getting to drop down fully will take a little wiggle jiggle to get the hex on the bottom to mesh with the oil pump. I hope this is what is giving you the problem. Good Luck.

jss672011

I am looking up a friend for his BIG slotted driver that I borrowed before, couldn't get it to twist up and out. Maybe if I spray some PB blaster down in there? Hate to have to take timing cover off again third time. How would cam jump a tooth on oil pump gear? Thanks 4 help.

jss672011

Battery drained for the night so lined TDC back up tried once crank, battery charging back up overnight and carb choke needs adjusted to about 5/16

Coronet 500

Never seen one "jump a tooth" someone would have to physically move it unless either gear was very worn which you would notice right away.

440roadrunner

jss, you confused me with your description of the rotor "o clock"

Here's the thing---- you don't need to argue with the drive gear to set timing

The reason "the book" specifies a certain drive tang orientation, and a certain cap hole for no1 is

So the assembly line workers can "wrench repeat."

So the plug wires "lay nice"

So the tune up mechs "see what they expect."

The fact is that ANY american V8, Ferd, GM, etc, you can just "cram" the distributor in there blind, bring no1 up to fire, with the timing marks where you want, and stick the no1 wire in WHERE EVER the rotor points

It may be that your drive gear was installed wrong OR you may have a cam timing issue. If this is an old engine with lots of miles, the cam sprocket (they are not gears) has slipped

I had one guy claim that the intermediate shaft (dist. drive gear) had broken a drive pin, but that would be incredibly rare

So far as walking the gear up -- you may have some gum/ varnish that is preventing that.


We need to know more about what you are doing here-------

what are you doing that you had the dist out? New engine? New cam? New distributor?

Coronet 500

A couple of things I failed to mention, some distributors have a slot or depression in the body that the hold down tab fits into only allowing it to be twisted so far each way. If yours is like this pointing it at #1 intake bolt is required. Another is if yours has a vacum canister on the distributor it will need to be in that 9 o'clock area to miss the oil sender and coil mount on the manifold, it's a busy little place back there.

jss672011

The cam was turned awhile back by hand about a 1/4 turn when the timing chain and gears were off. Make a difference?

jss672011

The cam was turned awhile back by hand about a 1/4 turn when the timing chain and gears were off. Make a difference?

The very original prob was I replaced timing chain and gears, had dist out at time bought new dist, cap, wires, ecu, volt reg, troubleshooting. The REAL cause that I found out later and was a 20min fix was that the EGR plug in the intake under carb after carb is pulled, this plug worked out of the threaded hole and wedged into the intake air tunnel ram, never found that until I went through all the rest replacing timing and gears. Yes gear marks were at 6 o'clock cam 12 o'clock crank when reinstalled. EGR plug is now back and that was the ORIGINAL REAL prob. Not the timing chain and gears, it backfired and missed loudly when EGR plug was out, didn't have a flat plug in hole. CAlifornia LA engine. O'clock means looking at the disturb from the front of the truck firewall being 12 o'clock, radiator being 6 oclcok on the dist Clockwise rotation. 10 degrees TDC is piston up top on the firing or 3rd stroke cycle, points my rotor button straight to the radiator. 0 degrees will put it around 9 0oclock, rotor button pointing to passenger fender, vacuum canister on dist pointed to about 8 oclcok when it used to run fine, if I remember correctly.

jss672011

AT 0 TDC its off and rotor button points to about 8 olcock on the dist. see last 2 post before this one I posted.

Coronet 500

No use in trying to figure it out now, go back to basics and use original OEM installation procedure.

440roadrunner

Look, this is not rocket science

IF YOU are sure the cam is in time

IF YOU are sure the timing marks (balancer) is correct (they DO slip!!)

Bring no1 up on compression (feel with your finger in the hole) and set the marks for "where" you want initial timing, IE 10 BTC

and WHEREVER the rotor points, (APPROACHING) a hole, wiggle the dist to bring the reluctor tip into the center of the pickup coil, and plug no1 wire in that hole

IF it doesn't run there, you have cam timing issues, regardless of what you want to believe

bremereric

Just to confuse you more number one spark plug can be anywhere on the distributor cap. You just got to make sure the rotor is pointing at number one when the motor is a TDC.

jss672011

Compression is the 2nd stroke, So I am going by the second stroke, no remote starter and no helper. Cam was turned when both timing gears and chain was off, does that make it out of time? Today I did the split the difference with the top of compression stroke and Counter clockwise to top again, the diff between those 2 points bring me to about 5 o'clock on the dist with rotor button, set it up runs at that point shuts off when I plug in the vacuum canister off the dist, ran a while 10 minutes at the lowest idle I could set it without stalling which I am guessing as about 500rpm, no tach, then it finally shut off with no warning, just shut off. Top off compression stroke showed me 15 degrees on the dampener not on the timing cover gauge the dampener. I installed the balancer one way by the keyway. That was so long ago I can't exactly recall now. I just lined the gear marks top bottom etc. Supposed to be TDC. Its not rocket science because I set it perfectly any time a few yrs back, something is off this time, sits idles little hissing now and then and sutler tries at popping. I wanted to just on compression stroke gets me close to the solid mark 0 timing cover, then just move it to zero move #1 to hole and start it, think I tried that too, was retarded and drains battery, if necessary I will just take it all apart and put a rough cam in while I am at it. Carb couldn't be that bad.

jss672011

It points straight to radiator when on TIP TOP of the compression stroke, cycle 2

jss672011

At some point tonight also I lost spark and unplugged harness and scuffed all 3 block tips and pulled wire tips out of rubber boots and put back on cap, spark came back, so between a not worlds greatest carb, and intermittent spark there seems to always be more than one fire popping up. Like to find new ignition harness from firewall out, who carries them? I also went back to my original dist cap tonight, AUTO ZONE junk cap(new) I took off.

jss672011

ha ha I hear you, with a rough cam, and maybe 360 heads.

jss672011

You know I go through all the procedures twice and am told to set gears at 12 o'clock on top of crank gear and bottom of cam gear 6 o'clock

This link and picture shows both at 12 o'clock

WHICH IS CORRECT?

http://www.moparmusclemagazine.com/t...2/viewall.html

jss672011

If both up I am assuming you start off #6

440roadrunner

NO. MOST American V8s built in the 60s and later are timed for no6 ready to fire

WITH THE MARKS as per the 'book' IE cam 6 o'clock, crank 12 o'clock

With the marks at 12/ 12, no 1 is ready to fire.

THAT IS WHY I suggest you forget the cam, as long as you are sure it is actually lined up.

IF the valve covers are off, and the piston "up" and "where you want" initial timing, IE 10-15 BTC, etc, if both no6 valves are closed, then no6 is firing, if both no1 valves are closed no 1 is ready to fire

Be careful to look close, because on the "opposite" stroke, both valves are close to what used to be called "split overlap" IE they are both close to equally OPEN. With hydraulic lifters that may have leaked down, this may fool ya

I learned the "finger in no1 hole" trick a LONG time ago in the early 70's NEVER ONCE since then have I had trouble setting intitial (static) timing.

ONCE YOU LEARN to do this, you can do it quickly, and the engine will fire as if it was parked overnight

I'm about done here. I know of no other way to explain this.

One last time

BE SURE the cam is in time

BE SURE the timing marks are accurate

!!!!USE A PISTON STOP TO DETERMINE!!!!!

Next, remove no1, crank until your finger feels compression, continue to rotate "small amount" until marks ARE AT DESIRED INITIAL TIMING and NOT TDC, IE at 10--15 BTC. and slam the distributor in the hole

Rotate the dist until the vacuum is about in the right place AND AND AND the tip of the reluctor wheel is in the middle of the pickup coil

Examine which plug wire tower the rotor is APPROACHING, and put no 1 wire in that hole

START THE ENGINE

The above destructions apply to ANY AMERICAN V8. The ONLY engines which are "fussy" as to wire orientation, are such engines as "even/ odd" fire V6's, and some 4 banger industrial stuff. IF you look at some of these caps, every other two plug towers are closer together, so you cannot move the wires "just one hole."

GM V6's used to be one 'ell of a mess, because some caps were oddly spaced, some even, some had elongated contacts, and some rotors had elongated contacts.

Coronet 500

Your having a rough go, lucks gotta change. Those timing marks in the magazine are incorrect or the manufacturers special instructions. Every and all manuals I have show Crank at 12, Cam Sprocket at 6, each point should line up in a straight line with the crank and cam center line.

PK1

X2 for the above. This is the correct picture. I have not come across anything that lined up 12 to 12 position.