Have a 1960 Chrysler with 440 - .060 over stroker with long cross rams. Cast iron 300 J/K headers. 3" "X" pipe exhaust. 518 TF overdrive tranny.

If car sits for 2 days (With trickle charge on new battery) it cranks but will not start. Otherwise it starts and restarts every time.

MSD 6AL box, Mopar vacuum magnetic pick up dist., MSD coil. New battery cables. Electric fuel pump. Getting gas.

Have swapped out MSD box and coil with new and no difference.

This is not a clicking issue. The starter cranks full speed.

Finally, found out that it does start with the ignition key on and jump the starter solenoid. Then it returns to starting time after time.

Mechanic thinks it is the distributor pickup not getting enough juice.

I have a new starter solenoid and ignition switch and will have them installed, but before that I wanted to run this by the group for any other suggestions.

Tony

 

Ballast resistor ??

 

The ballast resistor is not used to the best of my knowledge. Original dual point dist. wire not used. MSD supplies CDI to coil. Electronic dist uses magnetic pick up to signal MSD box.

 

A car should be able to sit for an extended period of time and start.

My first thought would be something is pulling juice in the "off" position or you have significant resistance in the wiring. Why the trickle charge for 2 days?

You have a charging or storage (battery) problem AND a starting problem. I see them as one and would start there. The former may fix the latter..

A 440 with a 518? NICE!!!!!!!!!!

 

You say it won't start, but have you checked for spark, say, at the coil wire?

If you have spark, then check the cap, rotor, and check for spark at a couple of the plugs. If you have spark, it's obviously a fuel problem

If you don't have spark...................


I'd almost bet this is a problem with the ballast resistor bypass circuit

Do you have original wiring?

It is important to understand how Mopar ignition switches work, which are a little different from Ferd/ GM

There are SEVERAL separate switches in the "can" that is the "ignition switch"

ACCESSORY, not relevant for this discussion, is hot in run or accessory, and feeds power to the accessory buss in the fuse panel

IGNITION RUN, also called "IGN1" is the traditional dark blue "run" wire, which is hot ONLY in RUN, and NOT start, and feeds power to the cluster gauges/ warning lamp(s), and power through the bulkhead connector to the ignition system, the regulator "I" terminal, and on 70/ later charging systems, to the alternator field

START, the traditional yellow crank wire, is HOT ONLY in start, goes from the ign switch, through the bulkhead and to the start relay

THE BYPASS circuit, also called "IGN2" is the traditional BROWN wire, is HOT ONLY in start, AND IS A SEPARATE SWITCH from the yellow above. It goes from the IGN switch, through the bulkhead, and to the COIL + side of the ballast resistor

THIS BYPASS circuit is the ONLY power the ign system receive during "crank."

If the switch is bad, the bulkhead connector bad, or this wire is simply not connected, you will not get any power to the ign system in "crank." The only way the engine will fire, is if you crank the engine, release the key, and the engine fires on "Momentum" as the "run" wire pickups up and supplies power.

ESPECIALLY if you have original wiring, do these three checks:

1 make sure you have power to the MSD box as per instructions on the large power wires, which are fed "hot" at all times

2 Hook a meter to your original blue ign "run" wire, should be now connected to the small red wire from the MSD. Turn the key on, engine off. You should read VERY close to battery voltage.

3 With the meter on this same point, crank the engine USING THE KEY and NOT by jumpering the start relay. You should again have battery voltage. If not, you either do not have the brown bypass hooked up, or there is a break between the MDS small red trigger wire, and the IGN switch "bypass" (ign2) contact.

 

Hi 440roadrunner,

My set up bypasses the ballast resistor circuit. I had my car rewired with a new wiring harness that had 2 extra keyed 12V wires. One for MSD box power and one for the Mopar electronic distributor.

The problem has been narrowed down to the box and distributor lose power when the key is turned to the start position.

I have an e-mail off to the person who made up the harness and asked whether he thinks it is the ignition switch just went bad or whether it requires 2 terminals to be jumped.

Never had an issue before.

Attached is a response from Gary who diagnosed the problem. Not sure if his fix of jumpering 2 terminals on the switch is necessary. I still am not sure which 2 terminals he is speaking of. Presume one is the start terminal.


"I think 60 dart is right, it's the ignition switch,

I replaced the ignition switch on my 59 with a 60 switch and had the same problem, alto it didn't matter if the car sat or not.
It always started right up before I replaced the ignition switch with the 60 model, so I knew it had to be the switch.

Upon close examination of the 60 switch and how it works, one terminal on the switch only has 12 volts when the key is turned to the "start position", that terminal would have been used as the ballast bypass. Another terminal on that switch has 12 volts until you turn the switch to the start position and then it has 0 volts---this terminal would have been used to feed the accessories, (Heater fan, wipers, radio, etc) This way the accessories were not on when you are cranking the engine. Well this was the terminal that was actually feeding the ignition on my car, and I found if I turned the key gently and just barely to the position where she cranked she would start right up.

The fix was to jumper these 2 terminals I just mentioned together, since the MSD does not use a ballast and hence no need for the "bypass" terminal on the switch. Now She starts right up, every time and regardless of how enthusiastically I turn the key. "

Gary

 

I'm a little confused, are you saying it's fixed?

This is almost exactly what I described in my post EXCEPT and this is VERY important.......................Some of the early car had the bypass circuit NOT in the ign switch but rather a separate contact on the start relay.

YOU MUST NOT jumper the "igntion run" and "start" terminals of the IGN switch.

Read my post again. If your IGN switch is shown as in the 60 Chrysler manual, you should have (as in my post) TWO separate live contacts in start

One should be the wire which fires the start relay

The other should be the "bypass" contact.

YOU DO NOT want to use the start contact as a bypass contact, because when you release the IGN switch, the "run" circuit will backfeed power to the start relay.

This drawing is out of the '60 Chrysler manual. It should look pretty much as yours

"IGN" (J2) and "IGN2" (J3) is what you should have jumpered.

"ST" (S2) is the start relay coil feed and should Not be involved.

 

"My set up bypasses the ballast resistor circuit. I had my car rewired with a new wiring harness that had 2 extra keyed 12V wires. One for MSD box power and one for the Mopar electronic distributor."

I would have tied both these wires to the MSD box. I bet one was run and one was start.

 

Hi bremereric,

Great thing about this forum is the expert help.

I too have a new wiring harness with non accessory keyed power to MSD box and Mopar magnetic pick up electronic distributor.

The ballast resistor and associated wiring are not used.

Until recently, the car always started without a problem. That is until I had the magnetic pick up Mopar distributor put in. Two different ones, in fact. Prior, I was using the original dual point distributor as the signaling device to the white wire of the MSD box. Now using the magnetic pick up of the electronic distributor.

When the car sits for a day or two, there is no spark in the start position. Shorting the starter solenoid starts the car. The car restarts without a problem as long as it does not sit overnight.

Must be that the MSD box and electronic distributor are not getting power in the start position.

"Gary" shorted out terminals on a 1960 switch to work on a 1959 set up. I don't think that I should be doing that on a 1960 set up. Wondering if the start bypass is in the starter relay, in 1959 rather than in the ignition switch. That would explain why his approach worked.

Next week, my mechanic is going to install a new ignition switch and starter relay. If it works then it probably is the ignition switch gone bad.

If this does not work, will switch feeds from ballast resistor wires with out the resistor per "440roadrunner"

Any feedback with this approach? Other ideas.

Thanks,
awrdoc

 

Yeah, if you read my post, ALL bypass circuits are in the key "somewhere around" 60. The manual I mentioned shows both Chrysler and Desoto. The Chrysler schematic clearly shows the "IGN2" terminal which is the bypass

The Desoto schematic (in the same manual) shows an extra terminal on the start relay.

Incidently let's say you put a Mopar into some hot-rod and used a "generic" IGN switch withOUT the IGN2 function.

There are a couple/ three ways to solve the problem

1 Install a diode between the start relay "crank" signal and the IGN run You can get a big diode from Radio Sh$$ and install so the banded end of the diode is toward the IGN system, the unbanded end to the "crank" wire

2 install a relay operated by the "crank" wire, and use the contacts to provide start voltage to the IGN


3 You can buy a later model Jeep starter relay like this, which HAS the extra bypass circuit contact:

 

You maybe correct Brem, BUT he states after the first initial start by jumping the start relay, it will then start... there is def a Gremlin (not the AMC kind of course ) amongst the wiring/switches/relays... JMO...

 

we had a similar problem turned out the gremlin was the aluminum intake "di-electrical corrosion" the coolant was mostly water and that water was contaminated probably salt this corrosion was setting up a ignition short a Gremlin that would show up unexpectedly we had to recycle the manifold it was a total loss and the block had its corrosion problems to. this was causing a grounding problem strange i know but once we changed the manifold and put the correct fluids and flush major flush in she ran with no problems
go figure this was enough of a short where the pertonix would eventually fry, after many coils

 

It is the ignition switch. Battery has 12.6V, 11.6V with switch in on position and only 8V in the start position to MSD circuit that was added by the guy who made the wiring harness for me.

Removed resistors from ballast resistor and replaced them with copper wire so I can tap off the start and run circuit with the full 12V with a new circuit to MSD box.

Car started just fine with the new circuit but it only gives 9.6V to the box in the start position. This extra was enough for the box to work.

Replacing the ignition switch should give full power.

Thank you all who posted help.
awrdoc