Anyone have any experience with aluminum heads?

My truck has to the best of my knowledge either unported or lightly ported 906s. Motor basics are .590 lift, 312* duration cam, hedman headers, team g intake. Not sure on the compression. Cam is a solid. Currently only runs on 93 or higher. Trans has 3300 stall. 3.73 gear rear 9 1/4.

What is the difference between the 2 types of edelbrock aluminum heads, and where can I get them cheapest? Not sure which CC to go with either.

Truck currently has a 600cfm double pumper, about to change it to a 800cfm double pumper.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Possibly considering swapping to a hydraulic cam instead of the solid cam.

 

84cc head will yield higher compression than the 88s. I run the 84s and I think they're great, but Edelbrock's quality control leaves a lot to be desired. I had them blueprinted and a performance valve job done. Great head for the money, and ARP head bolts or studs are cheap insurance.

 

Not wanting to raise my compression.. definitely want to stay on pump gas.

Any info on the 440source heads? any direct comparos vs the edelbrocks?

 

The 440 source heads are more bang for the $$ but I would upgrade the valve spring retainers to 10 * . You do want to raise compression as alum absorbs more heat , you can go close to 1 point higher on the same fuel with Alum heads . Going to a shorter duration cam could have more effect on the dynamic compression that the heads will .
Make sure you use an MLS gasket like Cometic to seal between the different metals as the expansion is around double with alum , all the factory engines now use MLS between iron block / alum head .

 

hah. i definitely forgot about that aspect of aluminum lol.

what cc are the stocker heads?

definitely be using a MLS gasket. Just trying to decide on the heads, and what will give me the most power gain etc.

 

While it is true that manufacturers now use MLS gaskets, they also can apply a 40ra Finish to BOTH the NEW Head aqnd NEW Block deck, as is req'd for a Cometic mls gasket useage.
Simply applying, or "Reccomending" a Cometic mls Head Gasket useage on an application where the NEW Head may have the req'd 40ra finish,
onto,
a 40-50 year old stock Engine Block that had a POOR finish even new from factory, is IMO, asking for trouble unless the Block is being resurfaced to the correct 40ra finish, and made flat.

If the Engine Block is NOT being decked/surfaced to 40 ra, and the intention is merely a Head swap onto an OLD block, any of the FelPro "Composition" style Head gaskets are IMO, a far safer bet.

Please go to the Cometic website for further application criterion.

 

Except that the FelPro gaskets Fail over time & the Cometic don't so 6 of 1 & 1/2 dozen of the other.
New name on every site Huh Bob so no one knows you ?

 

The old original head gasket probly WAS MLS !!!

 

And furthermore ,Chrysler had excellent machines and would not put an engine into production with a poor deck finish.

 

40ra finish???

 

I ain't here for any pissing matchs fella's, I am way too old for that crap ?
just saying,
before you go using Cometic Head gaskets on 40 year old 440 block deck surfaces (scraped & cleaned) ?

Please go to the Cometic website for reccomended surface finishs here, or PHONE them ?
http://www.cometic.com/technical.aspx

just the facts, do as you wish
1. Chrysler used an 85B Storm Vulcan Machines, or "Broachs", to apply their final Block surface finishs, good for it's day, but certainly NOT up to Cometics requirements, especially after being used & cleaned/scraped of the old gasket after 40 years useage ?
2.) the Factory also used a "steel Shim" head gasket, SINGLE Layer, non multi layer, with no provision for dynamic movement from thermal expansion, because no Aluminum heads were offered from factory.

 

IMO, FelPro Competition Gaskets will not fail within a very reasonable extended period use when swapping NEW Aluminum Heads onto OLD un-redone Blocks, are the best bet, and certainly not within an 80-100,000 mile period would be my bet.

I would like to invite anyone to go over to the Cometic Site, or better yet PHONE them, and ask if they reccomend their gaskets on 40 year old un-retouched 440 Mopar deck surfaces when swapping new Aluminum Heads.

Yeah, I gotta change name up now and then, so I don't get a zillion phonecalls at my Shop.
Not that I don't mind trying to give perspective to what may be, IMO, some "bad info", at a grass roots level now and again ?
Just my "2 cents", my opinion based on my experience so to speak, if it helps..GREAT, if not, thats your perogative.

remember here Neil(Psycho Chryco), as you well know..
I get PAID very well to Machine & Build Mopar Competition Engines for a LIVING, for some of the BEST, NHRA Divisional Champs, Mopars at the Strip Champs, yada, yada.
If you don't like my being here, please say so, and why, but please, don't do so from any ego dents ?
I'm just here to help if I can, same as you ?

Here is a taste of what I do Daily, for anybody who is "curious" about what I do for a living, seeing as how Neil(Psycho Chryco) seems to think ? or might be isinuating at some level ? that I have to change names for some other reason ?
the 2010 "Mopars at The Strip" in Las Vegas Championship Winning Engine

Anybody want to see the actual Dyno Sheets on the last 2 HEMI Engines I Machined & Built ?(past 6 months)
NSS Nostalgia Mopar SS Wedges ?
Pump Gas Street HEMI @ 912 hp ??
Pump gas 440's, 451's, 472's, 500's ??
Anything you want, I will post up recent builds/combos on ONE condition, NO PHONE Calls at my Shop.

However,
MY TIME, is just that, and I will help out if asked on this Site, when I have time, thats it thats all.
Please, no phonecalls.
I am NOT here to canvass any work, too much already, so please don't ask.

 

says who ? is that your opinion ?

I disagree with the FelPro failure scenario, other than over a very long timeframe, 80-100K, and I feel they are a far better option on old Blocks than the Cometic.

No,
same name on every other Site except this one,
or your site,
where I got Banned by you, for dis-agreeing with you ?

I starting getting phonecalls, questions at my Shop, NO TIME, NOT looking for any work, waaay too busy already building HEMI's and Competition Mopar Drag Engines for a living, and getting PAID very well to do so.
just here to help out if I can, on my own time.

Just like every other Site I am on..
Sooner or later, people will figure out on their own, who I am, and if my opinions are valid, and my information is correct ?

people will figure it out...
Sort of like,
WHO, actually KNOWS what ?
WHO, has actually DONE what ?
and conversely,
WHO has NOT ?

I'm game to help out of I can..

 

on a side note. The 4 cylinder engines last about 150k km before they pop a head gasket. Aluminum head on a cast iron block. The expansion rates are different causing the two surfaces to move.

Same principle with any other engine be it heads or intake.

Saying with absolute that one gasket fails more than another on an engine with two different casting materials is probably a good way find out how your shoes taste.

Bob watched the video. Looks nice can't tell what the engine is though from the angle.

 

You got to be careful pissing in the wind...

 

The Engine is a 440 Mopar Mega-Block based 540 Inch, using INDY "SR" Heads, heavily Ported, Flowed, R & D'd in our Shop.
We are a full service Performance Engine Machine Shop, everything is done in house.

I am NOT knocking Cometic gaskets,
Obviously, and IMO also,
they are the BEST Gasket for NEWLY finished Aluminum Heads on NEWLY finished Cast Iron Blocks,
which is using them according to their design criterion !
But,
It is also important to understand "how" they work in accounting for thermal expansion between the dissimilar metals, to make valid assumptions in accessing their useage on OLD Blocks,
and conversely,
WHY they are risky in my opinion, to successful useage, when used on 40 year old un-refinished block deck surfaces(or any steel shim) during mere Head Swaps.

Let me explain how mls Cometics work, "simplified" for explanation..
Cometics are 3 layer, 1 thick center steel, sandwiched between 2 outer thin annealed steel shims, hence "mls"or Multi-Layer-Steel.
Each outer layer is designed to adhere to it's respective surface, Head or Block, and slide on the center harder steel layer to allow for Thermal expansion.
Obviously, for this process to be successful, patent grab, or adhesion, of each outer layer to it's respective surface is of utmost importance, hence the outer layers "bult in" Metal qualities, than are designed for a specific "surface finish" that can grab and impregnate itself.
Also why COMETIC themselves specify required surface finishes.
No doubt the Cometic would grab to the correct NEW finish on the Head, but what about the Block ?
IMO,
(and go read Cometics own reccomendations for their useage of 40ra)
40 year old Mopar Blocks, with a factory 60-80ra finish, that have also been cleaned and scraped, bashed up or smoothed off in places, are simply not of sufficient quality finish for this adhesion to occur long term on any steel shim(even Cometic) risking leakage,
the very thing you are trying to avoid ?

Not saying the Cometic would not work on some, just that I've seen a ton of OLD un-refinished Blocks I would NOT risk any steel shim, Cometic or otherwise to seal on ?

again, IMO
when swapping NEW Aluminum Heads, onto OLD, UN-refinished, clean & scraped Block Surfaces, there may be insufficient grab, or adhesion present on the Block for patent long term seal on the Cometic, the very thing you are trying to avoid on the Composition style gasket.
IMO,
probably better to stay with a Composition style gasket, that is more forgiving to an OLD scraped Blocks surface imperfections, and can conform more readily to the OLD Blocks flaws, and lack of "BITE".
Any deficiencies to thermal expansion in a Composition style gasket is unlikely to occur within a very reasonable 80-100,000 mile timeframe.

IMO,
NEW Aluminum Head onto Newly Finish 40 ra Block= Cometic is BEST !
NEW Aluminum Head onto OLD UN-refinished Block= Composition is probably more forgiving for a diy Guy.

No matter,
The above is why I dis-agree wholeheartedly with BLANKET statements of always use a COMETIC mls head gasket between Aluminum and Cast Iron..from someone, anyone, claiming any unknown position of authority,
devoid of the manufacturers own reccomendations, without some knowledge of, and clarification of surface finish requirements.

Nobody likes PAYING for, or doing things twice,
Phone COMETIC themselves and see if they reccomend their Gaskets as BEST on 40 year old, cleaned and scraped, unrefinished Blocks ?

 

I think we need a "PINKS ALL OUT"! and see who's pissing in the wind...
Just for fun eh guy's
Go for it guy's

 

And the winner besides keeping the others car should start there own Forum page!
What You Say?

 

My opinion...... this is...

 

OK, assuming it's a 92 Octane(pump gas) shootout, naturally aspirated with no adders,
I'll run this one..
which we Machined & Built for one of our Customers last fall
572 HEMI
KB Water Block
Stg V Heads(std angle)
SMALL Cam...614" Intake & .642" Exhaust

 

Yea pinks all out you seen it before if you guys agree you put your best combo out there it's a great program... Plus it would be great promo for mopar forums also ...Bonus... The winner can promo his page.
Willie B is great big time mopar guy!... always looks out for us
Rich Christensen "Rick" is cool...man what a hand Drop!
So What You Say?

 

Ok. A lot of over my head info. we are building a 512 stroker using a 440 block and 440 source components. including the stealth aluminum heads. We had the block decked not sure of the grade of finish but it is smoother than a babys bottom. 440 source recommends using fel pro blue permatorque head gaskets. what do you guys suggest for this application?

 

Its fine. I use and have used Fel Pro gaskets numerous times. I have never had a failure.

 

Nobody asked Carrmann what he uses the truck for. are you drag racing with it, mud bogging or what? or just driving it on the street.

 

i agree with moparbob and pk1 felpro are fine i have never had a failure either.
unless you don't know what you're doing...
which i don't believe is your problem at all.