Hydraulic lifer Problem
08-04-2015, 08:55 AM
#1
Hydraulic lifer Problem
Just recently pulled the 440 out of my 71 Challenger. I'd been having issues trying to locate a miss fire in the engine for some time.
After removing the valve covers, I found one of the lifters (intake on cylinder 8) was defective & not opening the value.
I have a brand new set of hydraulic lifters, that I had bought for my 426 Hemi but never installed them.
Will these lifter fit the 440?
After removing the valve covers, I found one of the lifters (intake on cylinder 8) was defective & not opening the value.
I have a brand new set of hydraulic lifters, that I had bought for my 426 Hemi but never installed them.
Will these lifter fit the 440?
08-05-2015, 11:40 AM
#5
Try holding pressure against the pushrod side of the rockerarm with a screwdriver while it's running and see if it will pump up!
08-05-2015, 12:05 PM
#6
08-05-2015, 07:08 PM
#7
Remove it and submerge it in a pan of oil and pump it. You can try doing it horizontally and watch the oil hole for air escaping, but vertically works also.
Or drive the oil pump with a drill and oil pump priming tool while at TDC and pump it manually from the rocker arm.
Or drive the oil pump with a drill and oil pump priming tool while at TDC and pump it manually from the rocker arm.
Last edited by Drag Pak; 08-05-2015 at 07:10 PM.
08-06-2015, 08:41 AM
#8
I removed the defective lifter (see picture). In the picture see the bad lifter, it is the 2nd on at the left side of the picture, The base of the lifter is totally con caved with a hole worn through it!
Any Idea what would cause this?
Any Idea what would cause this?
08-06-2015, 08:49 AM
#9
2) insufficient break in lubricant
3) lifter not rotating at break in
4) improper break in (not alternating rpm during break in)
5) too much valve spring pressure at break in
Any one (or all) of the above!
A) camshaft is also going to be junk
08-06-2015, 10:20 AM
#11
Super Moderator
New cam and lifters are needed, hopefully you will not need a rebuild to get the shrapnel out of the motor.
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black68gtx (08-06-2015)
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black68gtx (08-06-2015)
08-06-2015, 02:14 PM
#13
Unless you run a full flow oil filter, that lifter and camshaft schrapnel has gone through the oil pump and every bearing in the engine!
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black68gtx (08-06-2015)
08-06-2015, 03:02 PM
#14
I guess when I pop the oil pan, I'll be able to find out more.
On the bright side the cam lobe appears to be fine (no damage looking at it with a light). I turned the engine around from the bottom to the top of the stroke and I had plenty of movement at the lifter on cylinder 8.
08-06-2015, 07:16 PM
#16
Not sure what a full flow oil filter is, just the standard oil filter. It's safe to assume that this has been going on for some time, even thou the engine has low mileage since it was rebuilt.
I guess when I pop the oil pan, I'll be able to find out more.
On the bright side the cam lobe appears to be fine (no damage looking at it with a light). I turned the engine around from the bottom to the top of the stroke and I had plenty of movement at the lifter on cylinder 8.
I guess when I pop the oil pan, I'll be able to find out more.
On the bright side the cam lobe appears to be fine (no damage looking at it with a light). I turned the engine around from the bottom to the top of the stroke and I had plenty of movement at the lifter on cylinder 8.
So a bypass filter lets 80 - 90% of the junk bypass the filter media.
08-06-2015, 08:19 PM
#17
Don't waste your money trying to patch it. Get a cam kit, clean the oil pan and the oil pump, Check the bearings !!!!! LOTS of oil additive (zinc) do a break in
Maybe use some BradPen break in oil for at least 5K miles
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brad-Penn-Gr...a46cd7&vxp=mtr
Maybe use some BradPen break in oil for at least 5K miles
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brad-Penn-Gr...a46cd7&vxp=mtr
Last edited by TVLynn; 08-06-2015 at 08:36 PM.
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black68gtx (08-07-2015)
08-07-2015, 07:54 AM
#18
My current cam is the P4452993 (Duration 280/280, Lift .474/.474,) I have a brand new P4452783 (Duration 268/284, Lift .450/.458) that.
I'm thinking about replacing the P4452993 that's in my 440, (six pack, auto, cylinders are .30 over, deck height 10.720) with the P4452783...
Any thoughts welcome
08-07-2015, 08:11 PM
#19
Mopar Fanatic
My personal recommendation would be a Lunati cam and lifter combo with whatever lift and duration you wish. Their metallurgy expertise matches cam and lifters for better break in than most companies that have moved off shore. They are not particularly expensive either. Zinc additive can be purchased separately ( I like Lucas ) in a small bottle saving the higher cost of brand oil. Better yet, bite the bullet and install rollers which require no break-in. You will definitely need to disassemble the engine to ensure there are no metal grinds where they don't belong or whatever you do next may all be for not. The lifters you mentioned will probably fit but the relationship between them, the rockers and the length of the lift rods may cause an issue. Your call.
Last edited by Rooty; 08-07-2015 at 08:17 PM.
08-08-2015, 08:52 AM
#21
All car engines have full flow oil filter. There is a bypass valve in case the oil filter gets clogged, but that rarely happens. However, these filters only remove particles larger than 0.003" (that is about 75 microns). So, small debris will get through.
I had a similar problem with my much older 440 (may have been rebuilt decades ago). One or two valve springs got weak, beating up the cam. I replaced cam and lifters (I used a relatively aggressive .477" - .480", 268-280 degree cam, which still has plenty of low end torque to move the heavy 68 Imperial around). My mechanic suggested to rebuild the whole engine due to the debris issue. However, the engine held oil pressure well, and I am sure the cam lobes were wearing out over long time. So, I just had them replace the cam (they did some head work too). The car has about 800 miles since then, and is fine so far. Oil pressure unchanged. This is a very tall-geared car by muscle car standards (I do 90 mph at 3000 rpm), so the engine does not work very hard, but the last 800 miles also include a lot of low gear accelerations while trying to tune it.
So, I think there is a good chance you do not need a complete overhaul again.
On the tuning side, I maxed out my 750 cfm on the jets and metering rods, and the engine still runs lean. I have just purchased an 800 cfm AFB, I hope that is enough. I have to update my thread on the progress, which is a bit slow in the summer.
On the roller cams, I have heard they are very expansive for Mopars, and they do not make a mild street car roller cam for 440s. In theory, 440's need a roller cam much less, since they use large lifters and they can have aggressive opening and closing rate.
I had a similar problem with my much older 440 (may have been rebuilt decades ago). One or two valve springs got weak, beating up the cam. I replaced cam and lifters (I used a relatively aggressive .477" - .480", 268-280 degree cam, which still has plenty of low end torque to move the heavy 68 Imperial around). My mechanic suggested to rebuild the whole engine due to the debris issue. However, the engine held oil pressure well, and I am sure the cam lobes were wearing out over long time. So, I just had them replace the cam (they did some head work too). The car has about 800 miles since then, and is fine so far. Oil pressure unchanged. This is a very tall-geared car by muscle car standards (I do 90 mph at 3000 rpm), so the engine does not work very hard, but the last 800 miles also include a lot of low gear accelerations while trying to tune it.
So, I think there is a good chance you do not need a complete overhaul again.
On the tuning side, I maxed out my 750 cfm on the jets and metering rods, and the engine still runs lean. I have just purchased an 800 cfm AFB, I hope that is enough. I have to update my thread on the progress, which is a bit slow in the summer.
On the roller cams, I have heard they are very expansive for Mopars, and they do not make a mild street car roller cam for 440s. In theory, 440's need a roller cam much less, since they use large lifters and they can have aggressive opening and closing rate.
08-08-2015, 11:57 AM
#22
All car engines have full flow oil filter. There is a bypass valve in case the oil filter gets clogged, but that rarely happens. However, these filters only remove particles larger than 0.003" (that is about 75 microns). So, small debris will get through.
I had a similar problem with my much older 440 (may have been rebuilt decades ago). One or two valve springs got weak, beating up the cam. I replaced cam and lifters (I used a relatively aggressive .477" - .480", 268-280 degree cam, which still has plenty of low end torque to move the heavy 68 Imperial around). My mechanic suggested to rebuild the whole engine due to the debris issue. However, the engine held oil pressure well, and I am sure the cam lobes were wearing out over long time. So, I just had them replace the cam (they did some head work too). The car has about 800 miles since then, and is fine so far. Oil pressure unchanged. This is a very tall-geared car by muscle car standards (I do 90 mph at 3000 rpm), so the engine does not work very hard, but the last 800 miles also include a lot of low gear accelerations while trying to tune it.
So, I think there is a good chance you do not need a complete overhaul again.
On the tuning side, I maxed out my 750 cfm on the jets and metering rods, and the engine still runs lean. I have just purchased an 800 cfm AFB, I hope that is enough. I have to update my thread on the progress, which is a bit slow in the summer.
On the roller cams, I have heard they are very expansive for Mopars, and they do not make a mild street car roller cam for 440s. In theory, 440's need a roller cam much less, since they use large lifters and they can have aggressive opening and closing rate.
I had a similar problem with my much older 440 (may have been rebuilt decades ago). One or two valve springs got weak, beating up the cam. I replaced cam and lifters (I used a relatively aggressive .477" - .480", 268-280 degree cam, which still has plenty of low end torque to move the heavy 68 Imperial around). My mechanic suggested to rebuild the whole engine due to the debris issue. However, the engine held oil pressure well, and I am sure the cam lobes were wearing out over long time. So, I just had them replace the cam (they did some head work too). The car has about 800 miles since then, and is fine so far. Oil pressure unchanged. This is a very tall-geared car by muscle car standards (I do 90 mph at 3000 rpm), so the engine does not work very hard, but the last 800 miles also include a lot of low gear accelerations while trying to tune it.
So, I think there is a good chance you do not need a complete overhaul again.
On the tuning side, I maxed out my 750 cfm on the jets and metering rods, and the engine still runs lean. I have just purchased an 800 cfm AFB, I hope that is enough. I have to update my thread on the progress, which is a bit slow in the summer.
On the roller cams, I have heard they are very expansive for Mopars, and they do not make a mild street car roller cam for 440s. In theory, 440's need a roller cam much less, since they use large lifters and they can have aggressive opening and closing rate.
08-10-2015, 08:28 AM
#23
Hyrdaulic lifter and Cam bad
After removing the cam I found that the #8 cylinder intake lobe (see attached) has worn badly. It had next to nothing as far as lift. Just curious as why only the one lobe has gone bad?
I did an inspection on the top and bottom of the engine and found no metal. I only found a fine sludgy substance at the bottom of the oil pan.
So I went ahead and replace the cam bearings and cam. Now ready to put 440 back together.
Is it necessary to preload the lifters with oil before installing them?
I did an inspection on the top and bottom of the engine and found no metal. I only found a fine sludgy substance at the bottom of the oil pan.
So I went ahead and replace the cam bearings and cam. Now ready to put 440 back together.
Is it necessary to preload the lifters with oil before installing them?
Last edited by black68gtx; 08-10-2015 at 09:26 AM.
08-10-2015, 03:28 PM
#24
Mopar Lover
I always submerge mine in oil and leave them in oil overnight. Be sure to use a quality engine assembly lube. Some cams come with the lube they want you to use.
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black68gtx (08-11-2015)
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