unclehulka

Hi All!

I'm new to MOPAR Forums, but not to Musclecars. I'm writing because there's more wisdom and knowledge here that just might prevent me from making a potentially serious mistake.

I'm about to rebuild the 727 TF in my 1968 Sport Fury 440 Convertible so I can drive it to Musclepalooza XVIII Sept. 1st. The transmission is a 1971 out of a '71 383 'cuda. I have a couple questions and I'm hoping that you folks might be able to help me understand:

1) I have the 1968 Plymouth factory service manual and I'm curious how much of the information it covers for the 727 Torqueflite is applicable to my 1971-era trans. I know there were some changes/improvements made to the '71's like part-throttle kickdown, but I don't know what, if any, info from a '68 manual will apply to my '71 trans.

2) The 727 I'm rebuilding was originally behind a 383 2-bbl. It is now behind the original '68 440 Super Commando in my Sport Fury. What are the differences between these two transmissions?

3) I have another 727 TF that's out of a 1973 Chrysler Big-Block. Is there any reason why I should maybe rebuild this transmission instead of the '71 that's in my car now? Would there be any benefit?

I appreciate any and all help/guidance you folks could share.

Many Thanks,
Uncle Hulka

440roadrunner

I think there were minor differences. Make sure they are not the "lock up" version, which is easily identified by looking at the front shaft. The "non" lockup version had splines out to the end of the shaft, while the "lockup" version had a smooth area similar to a stick pilot bushing

Most of what's in your 68 manual is correct, but you can download later manuals.

Go over to FABO, here:



http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/...d.php?t=244981

And there are some at MyMopar

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=31

Also at MyMopar, browse around their service videos, and in many cases, pdf booklets on various service

http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=117

If you don't have it, get Munroe's excellent book:


There are some great videos, about 20 on Youtube:


I don't know how to save vids in Internet Exploder, but I use Firefox, with an add on called "video downloader," and you can save all these to disk.

The ASTG manuals are a great reference. This may or may not be the one you want, search their website, and look around for price. I bought mine direct from ASTG, and later found a cheaper one on ebay

BuckNeccid

If you still have the original tranny from behind the 440 SC, be sure and check the governor in them both. You may find the HP governor in the original, it looks more like a spool of thread than the standard drivers does, which is basically a cylinder shape. Allows a little higher RPM before shifts. Highly unlikely, but check the front drum pack too, you may have a 5 clutch drum instead of a 4 clutch pack. Look at the planetaries too, some of them have 4 idler gears instead of 3. I prefer the higher numbers, but others say they can't see a difference.

unclehulka

Thanks so much for the replies! Thos service manuals just might be the answer. With any luck the kickdown linkage adjustment for a '71 is different for a '68. Might explain the flareup when it shifts.

Buck, the original trans is long gone, sad to say. I'm hoping the rebuild kit I'm getting from PATC will give me a new trans that I can enjoy. I'm using their Red Eagle Master Rebuild Kit with the Power Pack Clutch assembly (more clutches vs stock). I'm also installing a 4.2 ratio band lever.

I'm also installing the TransGo TF-2 Reprograming Kit. Hopefully, all this will let me drive worry-free for awhile.

Thanks again, Guys. Great info!!!

TVLynn

Should be fine The TF is one of the easiest transmissions to rebuild. THE only problem is the clutch pack, you may need to have it done.. Requires a press to release the spring & put it back together

unclehulka

Yeah, I was thinking that might be a problem. Thanks for the vote of confidence!

unclehulka

I wanted to let you know that this weekend, my buddy Jon and I were able to pull, rebuild, and reinstall the 727! What a job! Talk about staying focused!

Friday 8:00AM to 11:30PM
Remove, disassemble, clean and inspect. The output shaft support was pretty galled, but a local transmission shop was able to set me up with a replacement. We cleaned up the shaft itself on the lathe at work. Reinstalled everything except the valve body assembly. Note: We rebuilt the trans using a Master Rebuild kit from PATC. It contained Red Eagle clutches and Kolene steels. I also replace the band and went to a 4.2 ratio band lever. Very pleased with the company and their products. My salesman was Chad and he took good care of me!

Saturday 6:00PM to 10:30PM
Modified the valve body and installed the TransGo TF-2 kit.

Sunday 8:00AM to 2:30PM
Buttoned everything up and reinstalled the 727.

I'm happy to report that the transmission works great! Man, the difference is beyond amazing. The shifts are firm, but not harsh. The shift points themselves are a little higher than I expected, but that's something I'll get used to. The car just hooks up and goes. I plan on driving it as much as possible before Musclepalooza next Sunday. I can't wait to see how she does.

My thanks to everyone for your advice and support. It was a big job, but what an education I received!

Uncle Hulka

440roadrunner

GREAT. Way back in the early '70's several guys in San Diego tried to convince me that I should "go Torqueflite" but I was a confirmed stick guy. Took me years to realize that I might want to rethink.

Nowadays, my legs can't handle a big clutch. So I have a manual/ reverse TF, and love the heck out of it.

TVLynn

Check the throttle pressure adjustment. That can change your shift points ..

RacerHog

We called them (Leg Press)....lol
As in "How Many Pound let press you got in there"....lol
Uncle...Glad you got you trans fixed, and are happy with it.

unclehulka

Still not quite used to how a TF operates. Less throttle has a definite impact on the shifts. Seems like the 1-2 shift is not quite as abrupt at it was initially, but still firm.

A potentially new, non-transmission related issue has possibly surfaced. Yesterday, I rapidly accelerated from a dead start in my friends driveway (long, straight, paved). Almost immediately if felt like the carb stumbled. I stopped and saw the oil light com on. I waited a couple seconds and it didn't go off so I immediately shut her off. I got out and inspected the engine and underhood surroundings. Nothing unusual and the dipstick indicated I was less than a qt. low. I had just changed the oil before the test cruise and know that I filled it to the proper level, but there were no obvious drips and I have never seen any smoke coming out of the tail pipes neither under acceleration or letting off the throttle. I started the engine, the oil pressure light went off immediately and I drove her home without issue.

Hmmnnnnnn.....

This morning, I checked the oil and the level was right at the full mark on the dipstick. When I backed her out of the barn, there were no drips under the motor or the transmission. Drove to work without issue. At lunch, I drove to my father's house for lunch (he's 82 and I visit him every day). On the way back to work, I stopped for fuel (I better get used to doing that ;-) and the owner's and mechanic all wanted to check out the engine. The mechanic noticed what looked like oil drips under the lower radiator hose. We traced it back to the oil filter area and I saw that the oil pump was fairly wet with oil.

I drove it back to work and when I backed out of the parking space at the end of the day, I didn't see any drips. After I parked her back in the barn, I watched for drips, but there were none.

Hmmnnnn....

I have a theory and I would like to see what you guys think. I'm wondering if the oil pump is a bit loose and when I took off in the driveway, the pump sucked up a little air causing a drop in pressure and the oil light to come on. As the oil pump looks original to the car, I ordered a new Melling M63HV pump from napa. It will be here tomorrow and I hope to install it before the weekend.

Am I way off base in my diagnosis? What do you guys think?

Thanks for any insights you might have,
Uncle Hulka

PS - By the way, this car make great power! It pulls much harder than either of the two '68 Road Runners (stock 383 / 4-speed) I owned back in the early 80's (and they pulled hard).

TVLynn

That sucks about the oil pressure BUT there is nothing wrong ! All the oil climbs up the rear of the engine None for the pickup. You need some baffling in the oil pan. I had a coronet BB that would do that Punch it and watch the oil pressure go down. You can get a deep pan & pick up on Ebay for cheap

RacerHog

IS the oil pump thats in it a HV pump ? If so you might need to watch keeping oil down in the stock pan...

unclehulka

I follow your logic, Cowboy. I don't know if it's an HV pump or not. I hope I'll be able to fit an HV without issue. It may be a C-body, but it doesn't look like there is all that much room. I don't want to change the stock oil pan. Would it make sense to run an extra pint of oil (I'm using Valvoline Max 10W-40) once the HV pump is installed in an effort to prevent this from happening?

Uncle Hulka

RacerHog

I've ran an extra Qt. of oil in a stock oil pan for that reason before...
I never had any problem....Well maybe a drip or two..
But that's just my opinion...

unclehulka

And I'll do likewise!

Last question, Bob. Is replacing the oil pump in a 440 difficult? Before Musclepalooza, I also want to replace a broken motor mount with the engine in the vehicle ('68 Sport Fury Convertible). Possible?

Many thanks for your help/advice, Cowboy!

Uncle Hulka

RacerHog

oil pump is easy to do...take the o-ring off...Make sure the pump goes up flush with the block.. Might have to pull it out and reset the oil pump rotor to aling up with the dist drive shaft. But look at and set alignment with the old pump when you get it out.... add a little oil in the pump before it goes in.. Then reinstall o-ring and gasket if required and stuff it back in and bolt it up. You should be ready to fly...

Motor mounts should take you about a 1/2 day.. Just don't break the fan shroud... Unbolt it ..lol

unclehulka

Didn't think the pump would be hard, but you never know. Thanks for setting me straight.

1/2 a day for the mounts? Yeesh! No fan shroud present to break (doesn't look like there ever was one).

Thanks, Bob!

unclehulka

Just wanted you guys to know that the transmission did just great at Musclepalooza XVIII this past Sunday! The day before the race I installed a new, High Volume oil pump and replaced the broken front, left motor mount. After checking all fluids, I put together an assortment of tools and supplies, asked the Lord to watch over me and my fellow racers and hit the hay.

Next morning, a caravan left my house at 5:30AM. Leading the way was my friend Russell in is 1966 Plymouth Satellite, followed by my 1968 Plymouth Sport Fury Convertible, followed by my friend Kevin and his wife in their 1968 Camaro SS convertible and bringing up the rear was my friend Jon in his 1968 VW Beetle. Quite a pre-dawn site!

We took backroads so it took us a little over 3 hours to arrive. After checking in and Tech Inspection, I got in line for some much needed fuel. While I was waiting, the engine started to run rough and stall. I didn't like that much. After fueling up, I parked her in the pits. Minutes later, they called my class to the staging lanes. Let me tell you, my 440 was not a happy camper. I had promised my friend Jon H. that since he was nice enough to rebuild my 727, he would get to take the first qualifying run. When he showed up, I put him behind the wheel, told him it was acting up and stalling, and stepped off to the sidelines.

What followed was not pretty.

Jon is about the best mechanic I know. Despite that, he just couldn't keep her running. I felt so bad for him. He made his first-ever pass down the 1/4 in a car that didn't want to run. Somehow he coaxed a 18.7 ET out of her. A miracle given her condition!

He got it back to the pit area and started fiddling with her. He enriched the fuel mixture and set the idle a little higher. I was convinced that the fuel in the carb was percolating. Time would tell if I was right.

I let her cool off for as long as possible. When the called for the second qualifying round, I nervously started the engine. It fired right up and ran as smooth as silk! I told Jon to take the car again, but he absolutely refused. He said (smiling) he'd had enough humiliation for one day. I knew it was pointless to argue with him.

The Sport Fury performed exceptionally! I napped at the light and got a .227 reaction time. Not good. I shifted manually, and the trans held together beautifully. The shift points felt too high, but they were good solid shifts! I ended up with a 15.719 @ 89.44. Not great, but nothing to be ashamed of for a stock full-size convertible.

Elimination Round 1 came and I headed to the staging lanes. I set my dial in at 15.50 to be safe. With a .175 reaction time, I ran 15.633 @ 88.95 and beat the '65 Dodge in the next lane. On to Round 2!

I left my dial in at 15.50. I cut a better light (.137) and the Fury ran really good.....almost too good! At the end of the quarter, my time was 15.500 @ 89.20!!!! 1/1000 of a second quicker and I would have broken out of my bracket! It was close, but I beat the '71 Buick in the next lane and moved on to Round 3!

With every pass, the car performed a little better. This, coupled with my near break out in round 2, forced me to lower my dial in to 15.4. I thought I had a pretty good feel for how she was running, but she hooked up better than I had anticipated. I saw the red light as I passed the tree. I lifted and ended up with a 15.918 @ 82.14. Musclepalooza XVIII was all over. Red lighting was hard enough, but when I looked at my slip, I saw that my opponent had busted out of his bracket. If I hadn't red lighted, I would have automatically won! As Dr.Smith would say "Oh, the pain"

The fury brought us home after a day of racing in heat and very high humidity without so much as a hiccup. I'll figure out how to lower those shift points and by God, I'll have her at Musclepalooza XIX!

Just wanted to share that day with those folks who helped get me there. Many thanks to each of you!

Uncle Hulka

RacerHog

Glad you had a good time.... Hope the rest of the folks had a good time also?
Time for a few more parts to help out the Fuel Boiling,, And you will be flying...

unclehulka

Thanks, RacerHog!

Now, having no racing experience, are those times good for a stock 440-equipped Sport Fury Convertible? I'm thinking that's not too shabby. I can't find a road test of a 440 Fury for a reference, but I've read enough period musclecar tests that show mid-15 second quarter-mile times were pretty typical for your average stock musclecar. BTW, I'm not looking for an ego-stroke. I'm looking for an objective opinion.

Hulka

RacerHog

That is respectable for your first time out.... Thats a good time for the car also.
And you will get better with it also....
With those types of times... Your going to be killer in the bracket class once you get your R.T down....
Hope you had a blast...
Done Good
And it went from a to b...

pro-tech

Wow with the rain Saturday, I went by there about 730 -800 oclock and the pits were under water and the camping area was a pond. So I though it would be canceled. Damn Where do you live? I'm about an hour west of the Valley. Every time I race there I get butterflies in my stomach when I stage but it goes away real quick as soon as the tree starts down...Lol You did great for a first time and The car performed well for a bone stock car... I feel your pain with the red light start. You might of staged to deep and the slightest movement kicks the red light.. Like you said next year....Bill

moe7404

my third car was a TF. a 1965 300 L. have had NOTHING else since. only ONE rebuild. 9 vehicles. thats the short story.

TVLynn

If the other driver saw your red light There was no need for him to worry about breaking out. He may have just wanted to test for his dial in the next round ! You may have staged a little deeper and got the big red ! If you don't get one occasionally your not trying. That was always my problem - foot braking with two bad legs