BuckNeccid

As much as I've talked about this... it got me . Fresh 440, and I fired it up long enough to break the cam in and seat the rings, then was gonna change the oil and add some ZDDP.

Well, I was pushing to make a car show that everyone kept telling me I HAD to do, since a buddy had paid the entry fee and had me entered. I just took the car to the show, and by the time that 4 days was over, I forgot I hadn't added anything.

About 100 miles of driving later, I realized that, added some STP to try and catch it. about 200 miles into it, I had one bank smoking bad, and a weaker feeling engine. First thought was a cracked head.

I started pulling the engine down Sunday, just to see what I could find since it kept getting worse. About half way into it, I saw a lifter collapsing. Pulled it out, and there's about a 1/2 hole in the bottom of it, about 1/16th of an inch of the overall length worn away, and a wiped cam lobe.

Don't this look sweet?







A few of the other lifters showed signs of bad wear, a couple had a center circle worn that looked as tho it was ready to break out, but hadn't dished too much. It looks like they are wearing across the whole face, making them shorter before they break thru and dish.

scotts74birds

OUCH! Bad enough on its own, now you gotta wonder where the rest of the lifter and cam went. You have my sympathies, this must have been crushing. I've read the postings on this subject, but never thought the effects would be so drastic or rapid. Do I smell a "Roller Cam Conspiracy"? Is someone cheating on the surface hardening of these components? What brand was it?

72RDRNR

I could have sworn I have heard about this zinc (lack of) effect some where....mmm where was it... Oh yeah!! 67 GTX, the most posted guy. I'm feeling bad for you too... Sorry to hear it.

BuckNeccid

If I remember right it was a Comp Cam, normally that's what I use. I'm putting a Lunati back in there just cause I got a good deal on it.

The missing metal, I dunno, but before the engine goes back together, I'm draining the oil, and then using a bug or weed sprayer thru the bottom of the timing chain cover hole, and some kerosene, spray it back and hope all the metal in there gets washed out the drain hole. From the look of the cam bearings, the metal didn't get into the pressurized oil, but if I don't do something, it's going to end up at the pick up. I hope the magnet I have in the oil pan caught most of it.

67 GTX

FINALLY
NOW YOU GUYS KNOW THAT I AM NOT CRAZY
THIS IS WHY I ALWAYS BUMP MY OWN OIL POST
haha
tough break man, you better pull the engine
all that metal is in it

67gtxclone

So what was the issue here? I have a fresh 440 I will be firing up for the first time in a few weeks and I do not want this to happen to me! I am really sorry it happened to you.

BuckNeccid

Most of the newer engine oils don't have ZDDP (Zinc) in them for EPA purposes, and since most newer engines use roller lifters, it's no big thing. For flat tappet cams, the zinc is required as a lubricant between the lifter face and the cam face.

Be sure to use the cam break in lube supplied with your cam, and that the engine oil you're using has enough ZDDP in it (Approx 12 ppm), or that you have an additive that will bring the concentrations to that level.

67gtxclone

After I read the post that started this thread, I went out and read a bunch of articles on ZDDP. It looks like this issue goes back to 2006 and maybe further. My 440 has a roller valve train, so maybe I don't have to worry about the lack of ZDDP in the current motor oils? My question would be this, is there any harm in adding ZDDP just to be safe? It sounds like cheap insurance to me.

78D200

Had that happen to my amc 360. it sucks.

BuckNeccid

It won't hurt a thing clone, and may actually do some good, but since you are roller already, odds are it won't be a huge protection thing.

I first read about it about 3 years ago or so, Hagerty Insurance for collector cars had an article in their magazine they send out about it, and it had a list of all oils still containing Zinc, and the amounts that were in them.

ykf7b0

I use Valvoline VR 1 in my engine. From what I've learned it is formulated with massive amounts of zinc and will continue to be in the future. Alot of my friends switched to diesel oil for use in their -in block cam engines- but I chose not to do this due to my learning that the Fed. Gov't was mandating that even diesel engines were going to be required to use catalytic converters and the zinc in the diesel oil ,as well as conventional oil, was prone to stopping converters up and therefore the zinc would be removed in diesel oil as well.

Polaradude

That's brutal Buck, Along with the no Zinc ya gotta wonder about what Scotty said about the case hardening. Jesus that's quick.

BuckNeccid

Howdy Polara, been awhile since I saw you post anything.

Yea, I did wonder about the case hardening, but if that's the case, I'd lean toward the lifters being the problem since they wore faster than the cam. I only had the one lobe wiped, but a number of the lifters were worn.

I kept a couple of the lifters, and that's one of the first things I show friends who are coming around to visit and haven't seen them. It never fails to extract some kind of exclamation.

So far tho, the new stuff is holding fine, engine's running better than ever, and we even went racing with it last month. Maybe it was a good thing.

67 GTX

does anyone know if rotella still has zinc in it?

ykf7b0

The last I read was that there was a reduction. This was done sometime last year in the reformulated Rotella T.

67 GTX

how did it run?

BuckNeccid

WAY better than it should have. I got an 8.36, 84.18mph out of it in the 8th, first pass. According to the on line 1/8th to 1/4 convertor, that's a 13.03.

I let my ex wife drive after that ( I think I told that story before lol), and the best she could get was a 9.50. I kinda think she was a little afraid of it.

.030 over 440, flat tops, maybe 10-1, 440 source Stealth heads as they come, Lunati Voodoo cam of Duration 242/252, Lift .533/.552, old Weiand flat intake that looks like a no rise single 4 rat roaster (WCSO or WCSQ) 750 Holley, Heddman headers (big tube, thru the mufflers 2 1/2 all the way) MP distributor and MSD 6AL, 2800 stall and 3.55 gears running 275/60-15. Can't forget the hooked up AC, PS and PB.

ykf7b0

That's a great running Mopar!!!

67 GTX

nice
very nice

Fratzog440

Ya you dont wanna wait to run zinc oil in it. you should be running it on the first start up. what i did on my 440 was put 5 litres of 10w-30 and 1 litre of 15w-40 diesel oil. it worked great. or another good idea is just to get straight up break in oil. thats what its made for

67 GTX

what i run now is 15w-40 diesel oil with a break in additive

old tired rebel

I seen a new oil out that is green and suppose to have zinc added to it.I can't remember the name.I will get my magazine tomorrow and post the website.

Mr.Duster

oh man i def. got to get some zinc for mine.

Mr.Duster

isnt that additive called zmax or something theres some other one to in the mopar books that just came out

old tired rebel

No it's not ZMAX this is motor oil. I'm going to my storage unit this afternoon and get the magazine.

old tired rebel

The oil I seen is called Brad Penn oil. Here is the link.

http://bradpennracing.com

67 GTX

are you gonna use that oil now?

old tired rebel

Thinking about it

Archer

Hey guys -

Had to bring back this old thread, as it's something I'm a little worried about. I'm running a 1980's a mid-range Iskandarian/valve train cam that should still have high chromium content, but my mechanic is still worried about the lack of zinc in current motor oils (for both the cam and lifters). The last oil change got Rotella, but was wondering what you guys were using in your old(er) engines. The ZDDP motor oils (not the additives) sound promising.

So what's the current favorite?

Archer

67 GTX

even rotella is cutting back on zinc now
i still run it, but with a break in oil from comp cams

this might help you
https://moparforums.com/forums/f62/o...-engines-2333/